Charging an HP Elitebook x360 1030 G3 with a linear power supply

[Peperonix]

Hello everyone!

I need to charge the genuine BM04XL battery from an HP EliteBook x360 1030 G3, which suddenly got a charging port problem.
I tried resetting the charging, by pressing the power button for ~15 seconds, but id didn't solved anything ; the laptop is still not charging.

The battery appears deeply discharged, with no more voltage at the pins located at the rear of the female connector.

I had to clone the internal SSD running on the battery, because of the lack of USB ports :
- the first USB-C port was used to boot a live Linux
- the second USB-C port was used to connect the target drive
- the USB 3 port (now replaced) was damaged.
Since the laptop is powered in USB-C, there was no remaining socket for the power supply during the cloning, so that the battery was drained.

After the cloning, the laptop has been able to start a few times from the battery, but not for long time.
The last time Windows attempted updating some firmware (without my agreement) and it failed.
Hence, I assume there is possibly some firmware corruption for the charing port or BIOS corruption.
Is is also possible that the charging port does not work well when the battery was too much drained.

Before I can possibly roll back to a previous firmware version, I need to directly charge the battery enough, using my linear power supply.

The battery is a 4-cells one, in 7,7V.
My rule of thumb for charging is to apply a voltage slighly over what the battery will deliver, typically 4,2V for a 3,7V battery.
So, I assume the charging voltage to apply would be around 8,5V for this battery. Right?

To the touch, there are four large cells from left two right.
As 4V ist typical from Li-Ion batteries, I wonder how this battery is built.
Because of the 4 red wires (positive) and the four black wires (negative), I assume that each large cell is done of two 3,8V cells stacked over each other (although the battery is really slim). This would make each of the four red/black wire pairs supply one cell.
The other possible layout would be the large cells being 3.8V, and paired by two to deliver the 7.7V, but this seems to me more unlikely because of the number of cables.

I assume one can apply 8.5V to all four red pins and the same time, with the negative to all four black pins.

Or alternatively, to successively apply 8.5V to each of red/black pairs, assuming however that the order or the cables matches thus of the cells.

And check voltage for each pair of red/black pins, until it is close from 7.7V.

Because of the nature of the connector, the charging would be done from the pins at the rear of the battery connector, and I don't want to damage the mainboard.
Can someone confirm that the considered voltage and procedure are correct?

Thank you very much.

 

[Markverhyden]

Have you tried plugging in the AC adapter and Linux stick and powering it up? If it's not then there are other problems. Did you have the battery unplugged when you did the reset? Have you left the AC adapter plugged in for 24 hours? Is there a indicator the AC adapter is attached?

 

[nlinecomputers]

Well, you need to pull the drive and do your clone on the bench. You should also invest in a USB 3 dock so that you can plug up devices and passthrough power to the laptop.
Sounds to me that the battery is just bad.

 

[Larry Sabo]

I wouldn't think that applying 8.5v or so to the connector pins for the red/black battery leads would do any harm. Sorin does it often enough. IIRC, he connects the charger to the laptop when doing this, possibly to allow the EC chip to communicate with the battery's internal controller. Sometimes it's a dead cell that's preventing recharging, so force-feeding that cell can sometimes restore the battery back to a chargeable condition. However, that requires ripping open the battery.

It sounds like a dog's breakfast, given the possible BIOS corruption. (I thought firmware updates would not even begin without a substantially-charged battery?) What does the charger port LED say when the charger is connected? as Mark said, have you left it charging for 24 hrs? These new USB-C charge controllers are a nightmare.

 

[NviGate Systems]

You likely won't be able to charge the cells as they will be managed by a BMS located inside the battery pack. Even if you had a chance of charging the cell, however, without the BMS, you do risk a fire.

If the BMS has disabled the cell for a reason, you are charging a potential bomb. The BMS checks for various things like temps, voltage fluctuating, resistance during discharge and charge. If these values fall out of line, the BMS has orders to terminate the battery.

While it's true that at times there can be firmware errors and stuff, batteries are not really something to mess with. Even if you think you know them well enough. Depending on the customer use, these cells may have had little use but the recent full run may have revealed a fault that otherwise would not have presented.

Really, all you can attempt to do is order a battery and plug it in and see if it works. Lithium fires are no joke.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Really, all you can attempt to do is order a battery and plug it in and see if it works. Lithium fires are no joke.

This x100

 

[HCHTech]

Really, all you can attempt to do is order a battery and plug it in and see if it works. Lithium fires are no joke.

Not to mention the cost of the battery is probably only about 20% of the time you've invested so far - Unless this is a "desert island" type of situation where there is no choice (for some reason) other than trying to make it work with the parts on hand, replace the battery and go from there. Maybe take it outside to work on it...

 

[Peperonix]

Thank you all.
To your questions and remarks I will bring some additional details.

Have you tried plugging in the AC adapter and Linux stick and powering it up?

No. The reason was that the battery is completely drained out.
Before the battery was completely drained out, I could see that the laptop was able to start from it, remaining, with black screen however, as probably the battery was not delivering enough voltage to power the screen. The screen had some defects, but was globally ok.

Did you have the battery unplugged when you did the reset?

Yes. I tried with both the battery plugged and uplugged.
According to the charging indicator diode, the reset appeared to be working.

Have you left the AC adapter plugged in for 24 hours?

I cannot remember exactly.
Likely not. But I left the laptop charing for quite long time however, like 4 to 8 hours.
It was simply not charging.

Is there a indicator the AC adapter is attached?

The behaviour has been highly unpredictable, but after the reset, a white diode was flashing.
Then, the diode was blinking 8 times (in orange if I remember, but to confirm). Then no diode at all.

At some time, the laptop appeared charging, with the orange diode, but it didn't last more than one minute.

The original HP charger itself has no diode.
I also could test with one from Lenovo, with a diode lighting at its tip.
Both chargers are 65W. The laptop is a 13'' with i7.

Well, you need to pull the drive and do your clone on the bench. You should also invest in a USB 3 dock

For regular HDD, I have all necessary eSATA and USB 3.0 docks.
But this one was M.2 NMVe PCIe. I had adapter PCIe board for this, but not with me.
I recently buyed an USB-C adapter enclosure for such drives.
The battery was initially full and had enough remaining charge to clone everything.
But I was not back at the office when the clone completed ; hence the laptop shut down when there was no more battery power.

Sounds to me that the battery is just bad.

I can confirm that the battery was initially in good or moderate condition. ( lasting ~4 hours )

I wouldn't think that applying 8.5v or so to the connector pins for the red/black battery leads would do any harm. Sorin does it often enough. IIRC, he connects the charger to the laptop when doing this, possibly to allow the EC chip to communicate with the battery's internal controller. Sometimes it's a dead cell that's preventing recharging, so force-feeding that cell can sometimes restore the battery back to a chargeable condition. However, that requires ripping open the battery.

Thank you, Larry.
I agree. I will first attempt charging the battery as a whole, for short time.

It sounds like a dog's breakfast, given the possible BIOS corruption. (I thought firmware updates would not even begin without a substantially-charged battery?)

Well. The firmware started upgrading, and informed it failed upgrading, to the same version ...
The serious problems appeared right after that.
I recently have seen another HP EliteBook from this type, with also a similar charging port issue.

What does the charger port LED say when the charger is connected?

Nothing.
Or blinks 8 times, then nothing. I thing it blinks when the laptop attempts to start, but there is not enough power.

These new USB-C charge controllers are a nightmare.

I cannot agree more!

If the BMS has disabled the cell for a reason, you are charging a potential bomb. The BMS checks for various things like temps, voltage fluctuating, resistance during discharge and charge. If these values fall out of line, the BMS has orders to terminate the battery.

Really, all you can attempt to do is order a battery and plug it in and see if it works. Lithium fires are no joke.

Well, this battery was working fine. It is a genuine one, and I could use it during around 3 to 4 hours to perform the clone.
So, I am confident that the battery is globally in good condition.
Charging battery cells few minutes with voltage close to thus that the battery should deliver, testing voltage to see if it increases, charging the battery cells few minutes again, testing again should not be a problem. Then, the regular laptop power supply could take over.
The danger would be direct charging the battery for long time, without regular intermediate testing.
For sure lithium fires are not joke, but there must be some accumulated energy to trigger a fire.

Not to mention the cost of the battery is probably only about 20% of the time you've invested so far

In my country, the cost of a poor quality compatible battery is around 55 USD, for low quality.
If I order a good one in China, cost is around 40 USD I will have to wait one month or more. The customer cannot wait so long.
And I am even not sure that the problem comes from the battery. So it could be in pure loss.
So, I prefer attempting charging the battery in the first place and may order in later time.

 

[Blues]

The multitude of other error seems more likely there is an issue beyond the battery and the battery may be fine but locked behind other bad hardware. I do know that the specific model HP has stopped manufacturing replacement batteries and you will need to go with an aftermarket replacement if you do replace the battery.

 

[Peperonix]

Thank you.

Before taking the decision of buying the same laptop of a replacement battery, the most useful would be to know what is the normal behaviour of the EliteBook x360 1030 G3 when the charger is inserted but the battery disconnected, so that I can compare.

I observe this :

• when I connect the power supply and the battery is disconnected : diode lights on white, and blinks 8 times.
• when I connect the power supply and the battery is connected : no diode.
• when the power button is pressed and released after 15 seconds : diode lights on white, and blinks 8 times.

Using a professional linear power supply with current limitation, I could charge the battery to reach 7.7V, but laptop was still unable to start.
Maybe I didn't charge long enough. The battery output voltage drops to 7,55V after one night.

The charging voltage was set to ~8.6 - 8.8 Vdc, the voltage of 8.8Vdc is likely the input voltage as it is written (in Chinese) on the battery.
The output voltage is likely 7.7 Vdc. I wonder if this is the bare minimum and if working laptops are possibly delivery a little more when well charged.

Maybe I didn't charge long enough, or there is a data communication problem with the battery.

 

[NviGate Systems]

I am worried here. Really. Did you apply 8~ volts to each cell connection or as a whole, divided over how many cells?

Because lithium battery only charge to 4.2 volts. For that battery to get 7/8 volts, they are connecting in series. So let's hope that BMS is functioning!

Honestly at this point, have fun playing with fire. I'll just say this: If the worst possible happens, you only have yourself to blame.

 

[Diggs]

Have you probed the pinouts of the battery? Some BMSs will only accept charge through specific ports and what you may think are direct leads to each cell probably come from the BMS and trying to charge individual cells may be futile. In turn, a few of the packs I've torn apart didn't have a BMS and everything was handled onboard the laptop.

 

[Markverhyden]

Thank you.

Before taking the decision of buying the same laptop of a replacement battery, the most useful would be to know what is the normal behaviour of the EliteBook x360 1030 G3 when the charger is inserted but the battery disconnected, so that I can compare.

I observe this :

• when I connect the power supply and the battery is disconnected : diode lights on white, and blinks 8 times.
• when I connect the power supply and the battery is connected : no diode.
• when the power button is pressed and released after 15 seconds : diode lights on white, and blinks 8 times.

Using a professional linear power supply with current limitation, I could charge the battery to reach 7.7V, but laptop was still unable to start.
Maybe I didn't charge long enough. The battery output voltage drops to 7,55V after one night.

The charging voltage was set to ~8.6 - 8.8 Vdc, the voltage of 8.8Vdc is likely the input voltage as it is written (in Chinese) on the battery.
The output voltage is likely 7.7 Vdc. I wonder if this is the bare minimum and if working laptops are possibly delivery a little more when well charged.

Maybe I didn't charge long enough, or there is a data communication problem with the battery.

From the service manual

Caps/num lock lights = 8 blinks Sure Start has identiƭed a problem (Manual Recovery Policy Set)

From - https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c06979955

RESOLUTION
To work around this issue, perform the following steps to disable Sure Start BIOS Settings Protection in HP Computer Setup (F10) in the Security menu under BIOS Sure Start.

1. Turn on or restart the computer.
2. Press F10 to enter the BIOS Setup.
3. Select Security.
4. Locate BIOS Sure Start.
5. Uncheck Sure Start BIOS Settings Protection.
6. Click Save to save the changes and exit HP Computer Setup.

To resolve this issue, download and install the October 2020 BIOS release (or later) which contains the fix for this issue.

NOTE:
First, disable (uncheck) the Sure Start BIOS Settings Protection feature (as seen in the above steps) to update the BIOS successfully. Also, ensure Bitlocker is suspended before proceeding (if Bitlocker is enabled on the computer).

I seem to remember that you said the machine will not power up with only the AC adapter. You got a problem with the machine. Also, as others mentioned, you are literally playing with fire. You need to properly dispose of the battery you tried to manually charge. You have no idea what kind of damage may have been done. So it's ticking bomb as the saying goes. You just don't know how long it's going to tick before it goes boom. Lithium battery fires cannot be extinguished like other fires. I know that in Apple stores the techs keep something like a 2 gallon container of sand to dump, all of it, on an iPhone/battery if it goes off. That'll keep the fire from spreading.

 

[Greg Kristy]

I have successfully ressurrected a number of LiON devices with my benchtop lab DC power supplies. Most of your questions in the beginning about voltage overcomplicate the nature of Li-Ion technology. The chemistry defines the voltage of each cell, with little wiggle room. 2.2V for Lead-acid, 4.2V for Lithium-Ion. It's safe to charge at 4.2, and then 8.4, and then 12.6, but the safety margin is =/- 1%
So 4.20, not even 4.21 is ok. Twice I have pushed the limit. It's not a true explosion but it's a very spectacular fire, very bright, and for a short moment, very very very hot.

USBC-PD is a unique and actually amazing protocol for powering devices. But for THAT you can't just force a voltage in. Both the source and the load have to negotiate a networking handshake several times and both agree to raise the voltage from 5V, to 9, 12, 15, and finally 20V max. But without an actual USBC-PD chip on your power source, turning your PSU above 5V will just fry something at the input, which is likely what has happened.

It's also possible that the laptop is charging via 5V, which will not allow you to charge and turn it on, but if you leave it for long enough, the battery will get charged. USBC-PD laptops use both a step up and a step down transformer, digitally controlled. So, make sure you have a true USBC-PD charger, and if the laptop still won't power on, you have fried something internally and for that - badcaps.net is your friend.

 

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