Bernie Sanders is only candidate that opposes CISA

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If you follow this kind of stuff...

Sen. Bernie Sanders' opposition to the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act in its current form aligns him with privacy advocates and makes him the only presidential candidate to stake out that position, just as cybersecurity issues loom large over the 2016 election, from email server security to the foreign-policy implications of data breaches. The Senate is preparing to vote on CISA, a bill to address gaps in America's cyberdefenses by letting corporations share threat data with the government. But privacy advocates and security experts oppose the bill because customers' personal information could make it into the shared data.

http://politics.slashdot.org/story/15/10/12/173202/bernie-sanders-comes-out-against-cisa

Sanders is just about the only serious contender that is taking on FISA, CISA, TPP, etc. If you care about security, freedom, and rights... he might be your guy.
 
If he cares about 'freedom and security', but only as is consistent with his view of '2nd Ammendment is only for deer rifles, ban everything else' communist views? Summary: I wouldn't urinate on him if he was on fire....
 
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You're welcome to explain your views on the subject. Everything I'm reading says the opposite. FYI, the communist view goes as follows, so you might want to pick a different scapegoat next time:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; Any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. -- Karl Marx
Every Communist must grasp the truth; "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." -- Mao Tse Tung

Ah, but forget all that.. if you're subscribing to the current US political right's version of Hitler they paint him as a communist and an Athiest. He was a Christian, Protestant, or Catholic or was certainly brought up that way and that later states in a 1928 speech, "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian.". It wasn't until later in his ruling that it is postulated, not proven, he "abondened god"... he started the terror with the proclamation of religious ideology. Then they use the fact Hitler and the Nazi's used gun control against the Jews, and others. You're welcome to read "How the Nazis Used Gun Control - how The Weimar Republic’s well-intentioned gun registry became a tool for evil."
The problem with that is that the Nazi's were not communists, the Russians were, so it's a straw-man argument at best. The thing that Nazism and Communism have in common is that they are both totalitarian, but the definition of totalitarianism doesn't need to include communism. All in all, many of these types of government can be successful in their own ways in their own environments and socialism and communism can exists at happy mediums as well as extreme ones, just like a Democracy. Democracy is but a grand test of a slightly different structure that borrows from many of the social structures you decry. Nothing says Democracy can't run amok just like all others have throughout history. Having an understanding of the historical nuances is imperative as countries have been fully changed and obliterated for the smallest of things, things that usually are not definitive of the social structure in use, but rather the selfish acts of the powerful acting outside of the peasant structure.

What the US political right never gets is that the Nazi's WERE the Far-right (Literally identify as such, historically) and in many ways still are. I'm not saying that the "US Political Right" is the "Nazi Right".. but if you want a cheap talking point, that's a good one. Many of the current far-right's policies follow the premises of Nazism such as:
Fascism and anti-Semitism
Repressive police force which could arbitrarily exercise its power, whereas national security should take precedence over the individual.
The establishment of a "Homeland Security" - Name and Function
The Nazi's were anti-communist (To the point of denouncement and war, not just views)
Nation building and the expansion of the nation state
Excessive military and militaristic views; excessive spending at the expense of the self-proclaimed "true socialist" nation.
Uses Religion to steer public policy and as condemnation of others.

So now, shall we go ahead and abandon Republican principles since we have met the litmus test of "similarities"? I think not, because I know that there are perfectly reasonable Republicans with absolutely legitimate concerns and they are not all Donald Trump or Bush or whomever.

Now, I'm not labeling anyone here as any of the above, that is not my intention. My intention is simply to say some of the most productive and "happy" times in history occurred in XYZ social structure that people demonize and we should not be so quick to do so. Let us not forget Democracy is the "new kid on the block", fairly untested and far from perfect. (for which reasons we could all debate endlessly)

If I'm off base or misunderstood, my apologies... I typed this up pretty quick from mostly memory.. so please pardon any gross errors and I will gladly correct myself.

Server migration is done.. time to go home.. 4:48 am.. again.. pardon mistakes, it's a long day for me. yay.
 
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. He may agree with "us" on cybersecurity, but.... while I've been swamped with midterms and I haven't been following the news too closely, Mr. Sanders has some very troubling ideas from what I have seen.
 
Ah, but forget all that.. if you're subscribing to the current US political right's version of Hitler they paint him as a communist and an Athiest. He was a Christian, Protestant, or Catholic or was certainly brought up that way and that later states in a 1928 speech, "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian.". It wasn't until later in his ruling that it is postulated, not proven, he "abondened god"... he started the terror with the proclamation of religious ideology.

Now I'm not looking to start a religious or historical debate, but no matter how you slice it, Hitler was not a Christian (although he might have claimed to be). The Christian theology about the imago dei (man being created in the image of God), and such things as when Christ said "Love your neighbor as yourself" bear witness to the fact that this guy did not actually practice Christianity. If you'd like to cross reference for yourself, take a read through 1st and 2nd Corinthians. These were letters by the Apostle Paul to the troubled church in Corinth in the 1st century. In these letters you get a really good picture of Christian morality and lifestyle. From there I hope you can convince yourself that Hitler wholeheartedly rejected the things of God.
 
I hope Sanders beats Clinton and the GOP. His popularity is soaring. He fills more seats in any arena he campaigns in than any other candidate. Astonishingly, even in red states!

He's the only Presidential hopeful, except for Stein of the Green Party, who has the proletariats back. All the others are corporate shills with their palms up groveling for those Citizens United bucks. Bernie accepts no corporate $, only donations from people. And no, corporations aren't people no matter what Murdoch, his lackey Ailes or the 5-4 SCOTUS ruling claims.

Unlimited shadow money tainted our electoral process. Even foreigners are allowed to donate to Super PACS now. The plutocrats control our elections and legislators, not the average Joe. I'm sure our forefathers are doing 360's over this nonsense.

I'm also a gun owner and have no issues with his gun policies. I'm really conflicted about this. Every day some toddler inadvertently kills her little brother. Drive-by shootings. Mass executions in our schools and movie theaters. We have almost as many guns as people in the USA! Our homicide rate is pathetic and embarrassing. Not quite as bad as El Salvador or Honduras but compared to other highly industrialized nations we are a war zone.

Go Bernie, go!
 
Oaklabs,

While I certainly appreciate your beliefs, I do not believe that a Bible passage absolves an individual from their beliefs. While Hitler was certainly not a good Christian as viewed by us now, he practiced the faith and reasoned his actions with Christianity as well as had the power and blessing of the church behind him. Plenty of nut jobs throughout history are "Christian" and I don't see a relabeling of their faiths en mass due to your convenience. I mean, nobody is claiming that the Crusades were carried out by non-Christians, yet 1 Million innocent civilians died at their hands and was sanctioned by the church. How about the Spanish inquisition? Not Christian either? How about Pope Innocent VIII and his literal witch hunts? No, I don't find it acceptable you get to remove Hitler from Christianity. Holocaust, Lebanon War in the 70s and 80s, Protestant death squads in Ireland, the Serb Orthodox genocide.... that's a lot of back peddling. Doesn't look like the bible versus you have quoted have helped history and religion adhere to their very own beliefs.

Most people are not "Good Christians" if you take the Bible as you do. No shellfish (Leviticus 11:10), mixed fabrics(Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11), no pork nor the touching of skin of a pig(Leviticus 11:7-8). So, it is nice to see you will be applying those same standards to the Republican party and yourself. Jesus wasn't a Republican nor would the story of Jesus allow him to be.

The Christian theology about the imago dei (man being created in the image of God), and such things as when Christ said "Love your neighbor as yourself" bear witness to the fact that this guy did not actually practice Christianity.

How was Hitler not imago dei? Under what image was he created? If not God's, then you must be a polytheist. If you're not a polytheist, how do you reconcile that Hitler must have come from God's image? If you're going to quote imago dei then you're going to defeat your own premise on Hitler. Also, need I list the ways in which the Republican Party doesn't "Love thy neighbor?" - How will that affect your voting? Food for thought. If we're going to apply these types of things, they must be applied evenly in the thought process. Your faith requires it.
 
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I'm also a gun owner and have no issues with his gun policies. I'm really conflicted about this. Every day some toddler inadvertently kills her little brother. Drive-by shootings. Mass executions in our schools and movie theaters. We have almost as many guns as people in the USA! Our homicide rate is pathetic and embarrassing. Not quite as bad as El Salvador or Honduras but compared to other highly industrialized nations we are a war zone.

Amen brother. I am also a gun owner and have a very scary looking AR-15 to boot. I'm not for gun confiscation or anything of the sort but I'm not blind to the fact that gun deaths are out of control and it is obvious that the gun lobbying for the past 30-40 years has produced some pretty abysmal situations. I have no problem making people wait 3 days or a week or whatever to purchase. I have no problem with background checks and simple checks to make sure your not a mental-nut or lawfully violent person. How to define the exact stipulations of such things is another matter, but "Guns carte blanche" is moronic.
 
I have nothing to add to this conversation, except I like that both Sanders and Trump are stirring the pot. That really needs to happen...

That being said, Keep up the great conversation, don't see enough of em that don't turn to an argument.
 
Oaklabs,

While I certainly appreciate your beliefs, I do not believe that a Bible passage absolves an individual from their beliefs. While Hitler was certainly not a good Christian as viewed by us now, he practiced the faith and reasoned his actions with Christianity as well as had the power and blessing of the church behind him. Plenty of nut jobs throughout history are "Christian" and I don't see a relabeling of their faiths en mass due to your convenience. I mean, nobody is claiming that the Crusades were carried out by non-Christians, yet 1 Million innocent civilians died at their hands and was sanctioned by the church. How about the Spanish inquisition? Not Christian either? How about Pope Innocent VIII and his literal witch hunts? No, I don't find it acceptable you get to remove Hitler from Christianity. Holocaust, Lebanon War in the 70s and 80s, Protestant death squads in Ireland, the Serb Orthodox genocide.... that's a lot of back peddling. Doesn't look like the bible versus you have quoted have helped history and religion adhere to their very own beliefs.

Most people are not "Good Christians" if you take the Bible as you do. No shellfish (Leviticus 11:10), mixed fabrics(Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11), no pork nor the touching of skin of a pig(Leviticus 11:7-8). So, it is nice to see you will be applying those same standards to the Republican party and yourself. Jesus wasn't a Republican nor would the story of Jesus allow him to be.



How was Hitler not imago dei? Under what image was he created? If not God's, then you must be a polytheist. If you're not a polytheist, how do you reconcile that Hitler must have come from God's image? If you're going to quote imago dei then you're going to defeat your own premise on Hitler. Also, need I list the ways in which the Republican Party doesn't "Love thy neighbor?" - How will that affect your voting? Food for thought. If we're going to apply these types of things, they must be applied evenly in the thought process. Your faith requires it.

  • I'm saying Hitler couldn't have actually been a Christian who believed in the imago dei because he killed millions of people. He certainly called himself Christian....but he does not pass the "skunk test."
  • A lot of people have twisted the Bible and the church to do evil things. You listed quite a few of them. Just because they did those things under the guise of Christianity doesn't mean they speak for all Christians. Evil people will assume any title that suits them.
  • The New Testament changes how the Old Testament is understood (now that all the prophesy is fulfilled). Check it hout here: http://afa.net/the-stand/the-culture-war/of-shellfish-and-polyester-the-more-you-know/
  • Jesus had both liberal and conservative ideas. He's not a political figure.
  • It sounds like you have strong feelings on this subject -- and I can't argue you into an understanding of the loving message of the gospel. If you have no interest in exploring the topic and you like your ideas on the subject, that's fine. Just know that their exist Christian communities that are very different from what you are framing.
 
Oaklabs,

Agreed, having a religious debate would be stimulating but goes no where. Again, I totally understand your views and respect them.

From your bullet-point list it would seem you agree with me then and you have grasped the very concept I was trying to convey. That concept is that the label, Democratic socialist, socialist, republican, communist, etc does not matter... just as nobody is trying to equate Christians to Hitler, we should not equate Bernie Sanders to a communist:
If he cares about 'freedom and security', but only as is consistent with his view of '2nd Ammendment is only for deer rifles, ban everything else' communist views? Summary: I wouldn't urinate on him if he was on fire....

I know you, Oaklabs, didn't write that nor condone it but you must see the problems with such statements (and it goes for any political affiliation, too).

Not very Christian of a person that wouldn't even help a guy on fire by pissing on his head. The whole love thy neighbor thing.
 
  • I'm saying Hitler couldn't have actually been a Christian who believed in the imago dei because he killed millions of people. He certainly called himself Christian....but he does not pass the "skunk test."
  • A lot of people have twisted the Bible and the church to do evil things. You listed quite a few of them. Just because they did those things under the guise of Christianity doesn't mean they speak for all Christians. Evil people will assume any title that suits them.
  • The New Testament changes how the Old Testament is understood (now that all the prophesy is fulfilled). Check it hout here: http://afa.net/the-stand/the-culture-war/of-shellfish-and-polyester-the-more-you-know/
  • Jesus had both liberal and conservative ideas. He's not a political figure.
  • It sounds like you have strong feelings on this subject -- and I can't argue you into an understanding of the loving message of the gospel. If you have no interest in exploring the topic and you like your ideas on the subject, that's fine. Just know that their exist Christian communities that are very different from what you are framing.


*YOU* read a loving message... Westboro Baptist reads a different one. *YOU* say he wasn't a Christian... he said differently.

Point being that you're entitled to believe as you wish, but that doesn't make it so. The fact that Hitler didn't practice accepted (at least in your eyes) Christian practices doesn;t make him a non-Christian, it makes him a bad Christian.

Rick
 
*YOU* read a loving message... Westboro Baptist reads a different one. *YOU* say he wasn't a Christian... he said differently.

Point being that you're entitled to believe as you wish, but that doesn't make it so. The fact that Hitler didn't practice accepted (at least in your eyes) Christian practices doesn;t make him a non-Christian, it makes him a bad Christian.

Rick

John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I'd like to suggest that the Westboro Baptist "church" has perverted the message of the Gospel. I have provided one example above. You could find numerous counter examples, but I'd suggest you look at the Bible for yourself -- it's freely available online or in print. I believe that if an average person reads through the Bible that he will find that the overall message is not hateful.
 
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I'd like to suggest that the Westboro Baptist "church" has perverted the message of the Gospel. I have provided one example above. You could find numerous counter examples, but I'd suggest you look at the Bible for yourself -- it's freely available online or in print. I believe that if an average person reads through the Bible that he will find that the overall message is not hateful.

In your reality, sure. In my reality as well. In their reality? You're the one who has perverted the message. Whose interpretation is correct?

Personally, I don't think fighting over a 2000 year old book that has been translated multiple times, by human beings, is very rational.

How did this church interpret the Bible to arrive at this result? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-parents-beat-son-to-death-in-church-counseling-session/

All of this sort of stuff is the reason I subscribe to no religion at all. No offense meant to those who do, but not for me.

Rick
 
You're welcome to explain your views on the subject. Everything I'm reading says the opposite. FYI, the communist view goes as follows, so you might want to pick a different scapegoat next time:.

Instead of debate over communism/religion, let's just say my position is simple: any anti-gun/'reasonable-restrictions'/gun-grabbing politician is a POS in my book, all other potential 'good qualities/policies' be damned...; sorry, I'm an 'extremist' when it comes to inherent rights to self defense firearms. (nothing personal against others in their political beliefs, as some issues are quite 'polarizing' these days....gun control, abortion, gay marriage, the list is never -ending.
 
MDD,

I feel you miss many of the important issues if the only issue that you consider important is, "Guns". There are many issues more pressing in your personal security and when the National Guard rolls up or you have your property seized under the civil forfeiture laws.. gun be damned.

EDIT/Add:
It's not the confiscation of guns you should be worried about IMO. It's the laws and practices that enable an ability to circumvent the constitution... it is those laws that I worry about. You worry about the 2nd amendment to keep and bear arms but neglect to see that if you fix the other issues regarding the circumvention of the constitution... the 2nd amendment would fix itself. It's more a casualty (Not yet!) than a target.

We've broken the 1st amendment plenty now; freedom of speech, press, assembly and right to petition.
The 4th as well; protects people against unreasonable searches and seizures.
How about the 5th amendment; prohibits punishment without due process of law.
Or the 6th and 7th; fair and speedy trial by a local and impartial jury. No secret proceedings. Right to Jury Trial.
Not even the 8th? No Bail/Fines too high it is impossible to pay, less the richest. No cruel and unusual punishment.
Get rid of the 9th and 10th too; Includes the "Bill of Rights" as amendment.
Already broke 11th a few times, but overturned; Chisholm v. Georgia.
15th; prohibits the use of race, color, or previous condition of servitude in determining which citizens may vote.

etc. etc. etc...

Yet, nobody has come for your guns yet.. they already shredded your constitution and about the only thing left standing IS the 2nd. I just don't know why one would vote for the very people that do most of the shredding, yet expect them to stop there.

You can have your 2nd amendment, I want mine to be this in full:
546650073.jpg
 
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People want to talk about republicans not loving their neighbor. Granted. But then people also think it's ok to abort babies and murder them many times because people may not be able to control their urges. Is that right? I do understand about if someone is raped, but put the child up for adoption. Many people would love to have them in their home. A guy I work with is actually gone to China to adopt a little boy from there.

I am a republican personally. I used to lean democrat, but could never see myself voting for another democrat ever because I feel like the party has gone so far left. I think part of the reason you see so much anger from republicans is many of them feel their country is falling apart and want desperately for it to change, but feel like the politicians in power could care less about how they feel, and I think many people feel that way about "establishment republicans" who are in power as well who they feel they elected and aren't supporting their interests, which is probably why you see guys like Donald Trump doing so well in the polls. I also feel I can't support democrats due to all the social programs they wish to enact.

Expanding the minimum wage to $15 an hour is one. How will you help people? I make a little less than 15 an hour as a tech right now. Ok, lets say they pass 15 an hour. What is going to happen is the price of things is going up. I'm picturing McDonald's for example with half their current workforce and robots flipping burgers or self serve kiosks, the price of things will likely go up and more people will probably be out of work, meaning less demand for goods and services, so anyone further up the chain becomes affected also.

Another thing they talked about in the debate was wanting to do free tuition, even for undocumented immigrants. I'm not saying that these are bad people, but where is this money going to come from? It does not grow on trees. I owe nearly 40k in student loans, and that's on the lower end of the scale I think. If people want to immigrate here, that is fine, good for them, but do it the right way and be set up so you can pay taxes so it's fair to everyone. I know times are hard, they are hard for a lot of people.

Personally, if the election were tomorrow, I would likely vote for Trump. I would not mind a Trump/Carson ticket, but would like to see more of Trump's actual plans for the country.
 
People want to talk about republicans not loving their neighbor. Granted. But then people also think it's ok to abort babies and murder them many times because people may not be able to control their urges. Is that right? I do understand about if someone is raped, but put the child up for adoption. Many people would love to have them in their home. A guy I work with is actually gone to China to adopt a little boy from there.

I am a republican personally. I used to lean democrat, but could never see myself voting for another democrat ever because I feel like the party has gone so far left. I think part of the reason you see so much anger from republicans is many of them feel their country is falling apart and want desperately for it to change, but feel like the politicians in power could care less about how they feel, and I think many people feel that way about "establishment republicans" who are in power as well who they feel they elected and aren't supporting their interests, which is probably why you see guys like Donald Trump doing so well in the polls. I also feel I can't support democrats due to all the social programs they wish to enact.

Expanding the minimum wage to $15 an hour is one. How will you help people? I make a little less than 15 an hour as a tech right now. Ok, lets say they pass 15 an hour. What is going to happen is the price of things is going up. I'm picturing McDonald's for example with half their current workforce and robots flipping burgers or self serve kiosks, the price of things will likely go up and more people will probably be out of work, meaning less demand for goods and services, so anyone further up the chain becomes affected also.

Another thing they talked about in the debate was wanting to do free tuition, even for undocumented immigrants. I'm not saying that these are bad people, but where is this money going to come from? It does not grow on trees. I owe nearly 40k in student loans, and that's on the lower end of the scale I think. If people want to immigrate here, that is fine, good for them, but do it the right way and be set up so you can pay taxes so it's fair to everyone. I know times are hard, they are hard for a lot of people.

Personally, if the election were tomorrow, I would likely vote for Trump. I would not mind a Trump/Carson ticket, but would like to see more of Trump's actual plans for the country.

You repair computers? How many people did computers replace? Those automatons flipping burgers? Don't computers run them?

The robots are coming regardless of the minimum wage. Automation is always cheaper than people in the long run.

Things change. They always do, and after a period of hardship, humans adjust.

Rick
 
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