ACRBO and PayPal

[Mike McCall]

<rant> After being a basic member for awhile, today I purchased a professional membership. I nearly balked partway through the process as professional membership requires a the establishment of a PayPal account and automatic recurring billing. I have made other purchases where PayPal was the processor that didn't require I establish an account. Nevertheless, I figured I would just delete the account afterward. Unfortunately I cancelled the PayPal account too quickly and the ACRBO account was also cancelled. I repurchased in good faith toward ACRBO and I have written to ACRBO about this hoping that they will help straighten this out.

While I do understand that many use PayPal quite happily, I have no interest in having any more to do with them than I have to. Making a purchase where they are the processor is one thing. Being required to set up an account with them is quite another to me. I use Square for my CC processing. This is the same as my requiring each of my clients to open a Square account to do business with me. Just as I would never conceive of such a requirement for my customers, I simply fail to understand such a requirement for anyone else, especially a trade organization. If ACRBO cannot sustain itself through membership dues and advertisement revenue, I'm sure that help to secure other revenue streams are available to it. Requiring the establishment of a PayPal account to obtain membership is no different than my requiring my clients to establish a Square account to complete a transaction with me. Bad form! </rant>

 

[NYJimbo]

I cancelled my ACRBO account YEARS ago.

 

[Slaters Kustum Machines]

I use Paypal for my business and recurring/subscriptions. I pay Paypal an extra $20 a month flat fee to allow recurring/subscriptions without requiring the customer to have a Paypal account, this is likely all they need to do. I don't recall the exact service you need, but I ran into the same thing where my customers didn't want to create a Paypal account and don't blame them.

 

[Mike McCall]

I cancelled my ACRBO account YEARS ago.

I don't mind supporting trade organizations, especially if doing so may offer a sense of credibility to potential clients. However, if this is how they wish to do business then they deserved to be abandoned.

 

[Slaters Kustum Machines]

Seems like it was better before they raised the membership and changed the rules.

 

[Mike McCall]

I use Paypal for my business and recurring/subscriptions. I pay Paypal an extra $20 a month flat fee to allow recurring/subscriptions without requiring the customer to have a Paypal account, this is likely all they need to do. I don't recall the exact service you need, but I ran into the same thing where my customers didn't want to create a Paypal account and don't blame them.

This tells me they must be aware of this requirement and condone it. I have trouble believing I'm the first to complain about this practice.

 

[cmonova]

As far as the process and why paypal requires an account I am not sure.

I can tell you why I started the "recurring billing" when I started the Association.

Say someone paid $50 for the year to join. Then they contacted their GFI rep and told them they were a premium member of the ACRBO. GFI would then contact me for verification….BUT, then GFI wanted to know or make sure the person renewed in order to get the monthly discount. Well that is a bit time consuming with so many members so to me it made sense to do the "recurring billing" vice having to invoice people on a yearly basis.
As far as why it would wipe your account I am not sure about that process but I am sure they will correct it whatever it is.

 

[Mike McCall]

As far as the process and why paypal requires an account I am not sure.

I can tell you why I started the "recurring billing" when I started the Association.

Say someone paid $50 for the year to join. Then they contacted their GFI rep and told them they were a premium member of the ACRBO. GFI would then contact me for verification….BUT, then GFI wanted to know or make sure the person renewed in order to get the monthly discount. Well that is a bit time consuming with so many members so to me it made sense to do the "recurring billing" vice having to invoice people on a yearly basis.
As far as why it would wipe your account I am not sure about that process but I am sure they will correct it whatever it is.

This morning I received a personal and candid email from Herman Pool. In it he outlined the problem as being with the WordPress plugin (PMPro), saying that he paid the additional PayPal upgrade, but to no avail. I got the impression that at this juncture he doesn't know how to proceed from here.

I certainly understand the convenience of recurring billing for all concerned. I also understand the inconvenience of continually verifying the current membership to 3rd-party interests. Perhaps the solution implemented was the only workable one at the time. However, that is not the case today. Move your mouse over the ACRBO logo on my website and a script will tell you my membership status. That should be all GFI is interested in. It seems unreasonable to me for GFI to demand proof of a recurring subscription to provide a discount for ACRBO members. Current membership should be the only requirement. ACRBO requires honest, ethical behavior from its members. Shouldn't the same be required from 3rd-party companies ACRBO partners with? Why should GFI be able to dictate to ACRBO what the payment and subscription requirements are for its membership? It seems to me from what you said above, that is precisely what GFI did. Sometimes no-deal is better than a bad-deal.

It is not my intent to condemn ACRBO for past practices. My comments stem from the requirement for a PayPal account and a recurring subscription for ACRBO membership. If ACRBO accomplishes nothing else this year, this issue should be rectified. Even Stripe will allow recurring subscription billing and offers website integration. I'm sure ACRBO can find another option besides PMPro if it wishes.

 

[cmonova]

I'm sure if Herman is aware of it then he can resolve it.

You are correct with the mouse over the ACRBO logo. That was not an option when I was running it.

GFI never dictated what that requirements were other than only Premium Members got a bigger discount. That is not dictating that is "terms" that were agreed on. And obviously like it or not GFI, etc are out to make money so yes they are going to want assurances that people are members etc.

And never considered it a "bad-deal" especially when I know members that were saving the entire yearly cost of the ACRBO on just one discounted monthly payment to GFI.

 

[mraikes]

I'll add my tiny bit of ACRBO/Paypal discontent.

My annual ACRBO membership renewed and was paid automatically via Paypal on December 26th 2014. Less than 3 months later, on March 12th 2015 I was reviewing my Paypal automatic payments, noticed ACRBO and decided to remove it - as I prefer NOT to have automatic payments for anything that doesn't require it. I accept complete fault for not knowing (or remembering) that automatic payment is a requirement of ACRBO membership.

However, within seconds of receiving email notification from Paypal of the cancelled auto-payment, I received an email from ACRBO notifying me of the immediate cancellation of my membership. Not cancellation of my membership at the expiration of the term for which I'd already paid, but immediately. No refund for the "unused" 9 months, no option to reinstate automatic payment in case I'd done it in error (which I might have considered, not realizing the consequences ahead of time). Just goodbye.

I wasn't a Member that took advantage of what the association offered. I just paid my dues and received nothing of benefit but a feeling that I was contributing in some small way to our industry's professionalism. So the cancellation of my membership wasn't exactly a blow. But I do feel the approach was rather shabby and unprofessional in itself - and not in accordance with the Association's own Code of Conduct.

 

[Mike McCall]

I have no problem with GFI (or anyone else) offering a deeper discount for "Premium" members than for Basic or Professional levels. I wouldn't disagree with making recurring billing a part of that agreement with GFI. There is nothing wrong with such terms being agreed upon. Unfortunately, there is more to the requirements for ACRBO membership at both the Professional and Premium levels. Those requirements include both the establishment of a PayPal account, and a recurring subscription. Failure to keep those in place results in ones ACRBO membership being immediately cancelled. That is the issue I have with this, and that is what makes this a bad deal to enter into. Nowhere on the ACRBO website (that I can find), are these requirements made public, or even explained. How is it that the board of an Association comprised of highly technical people, who's current president apparently runs a company specializing in web design and similar offerings, is unable to provide its members with current technologies for payment and subscription options? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Herman Pool]

I'll add my tiny bit of ACRBO/Paypal discontent.

My annual ACRBO membership renewed and was paid automatically via Paypal on December 26th 2014. Less than 3 months later, on March 12th 2015 I was reviewing my Paypal automatic payments, noticed ACRBO and decided to remove it - as I prefer NOT to have automatic payments for anything that doesn't require it. I accept complete fault for not knowing (or remembering) that automatic payment is a requirement of ACRBO membership.

However, within seconds of receiving email notification from Paypal of the cancelled auto-payment, I received an email from ACRBO notifying me of the immediate cancellation of my membership. Not cancellation of my membership at the expiration of the term for which I'd already paid, but immediately. No refund for the "unused" 9 months, no option to reinstate automatic payment in case I'd done it in error (which I might have considered, not realizing the consequences ahead of time). Just goodbye.

I wasn't a Member that took advantage of what the association offered. I just paid my dues and received nothing of benefit but a feeling that I was contributing in some small way to our industry's professionalism. So the cancellation of my membership wasn't exactly a blow. But I do feel the approach was rather shabby and unprofessional in itself - and not in accordance with the Association's own Code of Conduct.

Sorry this happened to you. If you had contacted us about this, we would have gladly rectified the issue. I am happy to do this still.

The system does in fact cancel you when you cancel the subscription. This should be more clearly presented and we will do so in the future. Currently when people ask us about this, we setup expiration for a year from subscription date.

 

[Herman Pool]

I have no problem with GFI (or anyone else) offering a deeper discount for "Premium" members than for Basic or Professional levels. I wouldn't disagree with making recurring billing a part of that agreement with GFI. There is nothing wrong with such terms being agreed upon. Unfortunately, there is more to the requirements for ACRBO membership at both the Professional and Premium levels. Those requirements include both the establishment of a PayPal account, and a recurring subscription. Failure to keep those in place results in ones ACRBO membership being immediately cancelled. That is the issue I have with this, and that is what makes this a bad deal to enter into. Nowhere on the ACRBO website (that I can find), are these requirements made public, or even explained. How is it that the board of an Association comprised of highly technical people, who's current president apparently runs a company specializing in web design and similar offerings, is unable to provide its members with current technologies for payment and subscription options? That doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry you had this issue. As I stated to you privately in an email we use a third party product to handle paypal payments. As Dan pointed out, I did not choose the current billing method that has been used for all members since the organization began. Switching from this system means losing existing billing information which is something neither Dan nor I wanted.

That is not to say we haven't tried. The issue lies in the poor way Paypal implements the two different APIs. The current API we use is instant where the IPN based API desyncs things rather badly with the systems we have in place. With the system we use, we must chose one and only one PayPal API. We have been working on implementing Stripe API side by side the original PayPal API we inherited.

Hopefully, that will better serve you.

 

[mraikes]

Sorry this happened to you. If you had contacted us about this, we would have gladly rectified the issue. I am happy to do this still.

The system does in fact cancel you when you cancel the subscription. This should be more clearly presented and we will do so in the future. Currently when people ask us about this, we setup expiration for a year from subscription date.

Thank you, but there's really nothing to rectify. The system worked exactly as designed. And the idea that I might achieve a different resolution by being a "squeaky wheel" while everyone else it happens to is ignored because they didn't complain isn't exactly appealing.

Not that I have a voice in the matter any longer, but I'd much prefer to just see everyone treated reasonably in such a situation.

Welcome to Technibble by the way. I'm rather surprised you haven't joined us sooner.

 

[cyde_ePhex]

+1 @mraikes -
"Welcome to Technibble by the way. I'm rather surprised you haven't joined us sooner."

 

[TenYardFight]

Holy cow

 

[Mike McCall]

Sorry you had this issue. As I stated to you privately in an email we use a third party product to handle paypal payments. As Dan pointed out, I did not choose the current billing method that has been used for all members since the organization began. Switching from this system means losing existing billing information which is something neither Dan nor I wanted.

I do understand your problem. You were handed the situation as it exists. Fine. This isn't personal, Herman. It's the fact that ACRBO, as a professional trade organization, has allowed this to continue for the entire 6-years of it's existence. ACRBO doesn't even allow a prospective member to write a check. Why is that?

That is not to say we haven't tried. The issue lies in the poor way Paypal implements the two different APIs. The current API we use is instant where the IPN based API desyncs things rather badly with the systems we have in place. With the system we use, we must chose one and only one PayPal API. We have been working on implementing Stripe API side by side the original PayPal API we inherited.

I agree that you should plan carefully how to remedy the situation without losing critical data. So, who holds that information PayPal or PMPro? Why doesn't ACRBO have it's own subscription billing database? ACRBO receives a notification when a new member joins. It seems to me that you have the members name, email, and date they joined. If so, you have the means to convert them over to a new system. Yes, it would be a pain to set up an automated email that would go out a month before the end of their membership explaining that you're going to a new system and why. Name, email, and join date is all that's needed. If it's a technical issue, isn't there someone in all your thousands of members able to help? Have you asked the membership for help?

Hopefully, that will better serve you.

It's not just me, it's all your members and potential members. Clearly I'm not the only one dissatisfied with this. There are solutions available. ACRBO just needs a desire to better serve all its members by cleaning this up and offering payment options for it's members. As it is, if I wish to be an ACRBO member, I have no choice but to have a PayPal account and automatic recurring billing. Dump PayPal and my ACRBO membership is automatically cancelled. This should have been a priority for ACRBO to address long before now.

 

[cmonova]

@Mike …..No this problem has not existed for 6 years….

Maybe I am wrong and the ACRBO no longer takes checks but when I ran it yes I did. And there comes the problem again. You write a check for one year. I then have to send an invoice the following year which typically would go unpaid. Then a few months later that member would go to utilize a discount on one of the Preferred Vendor packages and was not able to due to their "premium account" was downgraded to "normal account". Then I would get a phone call about it from the member and how they never received an invoice. Then I would send them another invoice that minute and low and behold they would receive it and correct it.

And in the 5 years I ran the ACRBO nobody ever complained about the payment method (I did checks and credit cards…even tho it was a pain)…The only thing if you want to call it that members companied about it discounts from vendors and the percentages that they could get or wanted.

 

[Mike McCall]

As Dan pointed out, I did not choose the current billing method that has been used for all members since the organization began.

^^^ This would seem to indicate that this actually has been in place for 6-years. How would I know otherwise?

Dan, this is not personal. I have no way of knowing who ran things previously or how. That isn't my concern, nor is it what this is all about. It was not my intent to start such a thread as this, but perhaps it will help bring about change. In fact, it seems that is already has. Just this morning I received an email from Taylor containing a link to a new ACRBO checkout page that does not require the establishment of a PayPal account. So, perhaps it wasn't so difficult to do after all? Up until this very morning there was no option to pay without establishing a PayPal account and recurring billing, nor was there any mention of the option of writing a check anywhere on the ACRBO website. I don't know what was before, but I do know what my experience has been, and I am not alone in that.

As for the hassles of managing memberships, invoicing, and such, that seems to be the responsibility of the board members to figure out. Certainly there are systems that can be implemented and board members that can contribute their support to the administrative duties. I'm confident that a reasonable and workable solution can be found, just like there appears to be for payment processing only this morning. It can be done.

 

[cmonova]

@Mike…..

Ya a bit personal with comments you made such as:

The "current billing method that has been used for all members since the organization began."
This would seem to indicate that this actually has been in place for 6-years. How would I know otherwise?

The current billing system being paypal (but like I said I did checks and credit cards). But, yes Paypal has been in place but I actually used AEC Subscription manager for the purposes of tracking members vice what is being used now.

"This tells me they must be aware of this requirement and condone it. I have trouble believing I'm the first to complain about this practice."

I don't believe anyone involved with the association "condones" things that are not right anymore than I did when I ran it. But, if nobody ever mentioned a problem then there was no problem to fix. I know if "anyone" ever got ahold of me with an issue it was resolved.

How is it that the board of an Association comprised of highly technical people, who's current president apparently runs a company specializing in web design and similar offerings, is unable to provide its members with current technologies for payment and subscription options?

To me this is an insult and condescending…..and i'll even take me out of the equation and take it as tho you are just referring to Herman. The bad part is I've known Herman for quite sometime as well as many others in the industry and I am sure they would take issue with thinking anything but outstanding results from Herman and his entire team.

a different resolution by being a "squeaky wheel" while everyone else it happens to is ignored because they didn't complain isn't exactly appealing.

Again to me personal

This isn't personal, Herman. It's the fact that ACRBO, as a professional trade organization, has allowed this to continue for the entire 6-years of it's existence.

Wrong based on his understanding of the issue and the module/plug being utilized at the time.

Obviously I have non dog in the fight except that I know what the Association is about and the amount of help it has provided business owners over the years not only in the line of discounts for products but just money handed out to business owners in need.