30 Users, New Server, Need Some Input Please!

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Dragnix122507

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I have a Doctor's Office that we've been doing some work with for a while now. They have two offices, call them Office 1 and Office 2. Office 2 is moving in about four weeks, by then we need to put in new computers, a new server, network equipment and etcetera. Right now, both offices remote into a single Windows 2003 Server (that is also a DC) at Office 1. Currently there is a total of approximately 16 users remotely logging into this server all as Administrator... It's a real mess. Anyway, here is the details for the current configuration:

Office 1:

Windows Server 2003 (DC, AD, DNS, Terminal Services)
Windows Server 2008 (SQL for their Medical Program)
12-15 users on a mix of Windows XP and Windows 7, some in the domain, some not in the domain

Office 2:

4-6 users on a mix of Windows XP and Windows 7 that remotely login to the Windows Server 2003

Here is what we're looking at for the new Office 2:

15-20 users on 15 new computers, 4-6 being re-used

Now, both offices are going to have 50/50 MBps (at least) connections from Comcast.

Here's what I'm thinking we should do:

Replace the Windows Server 2003 with a new Dell PowerEdge (Windows Server 2008). It will run two VMs, one for the DC, AD, DHCP and DNS Services, the other for all of the necessary Remote Applications. I'd leave the SQL server in place since it's not even a full year old. 15 new Dell OptiPlex 3010s running Windows 7 Professional in addition to the ones already in Office 1. They will all be joined to the domain and will access my second VM for all their remote applications and the first for other network services. They want wireless in the new office that allows both internal and external (guest) access. I was thinking I would put in a 48-port Smart/Managed Switch and 4 WAPs. I'm thinking a ZyXEL XGS1910-48 and maybe four Ubiquiti UAPs running either two VLANs or utilizing the Ubiquiti Guest Network feature. There is a VPN tunnel in place that the Telecom company put in for their VoIP phones which could make remote access and DC/AD communication quite a bit easier. So we're looking at a total of 30-35 users that will all need to be in the domain and have remote access to the terminal server. I know that we'll need that number of User CALs and Remote Desktop Services CALs. For the e-mail, they're looking into Office 365 for it's hosted exchange and chat client features.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I've done several smaller installations/migrations, but not more than 10-15 users. I'm open to any advice anyone could offer... I'm sure I've missed something somewhere as I'm not super skilled at concisely typing information, so if you've got any questions, I'll be watching the thread for a while.

Oh and I realize it's near to impossible, but they'd like it done by early November and I've got three other, smaller projects going on that are supposed to be done by then as well. I've communicated to them that we really need to get the ball rolling, but it is what it is...

Thanks again, all.
 
A few observations.

You said the Telco already has a point to point tunnel for VoIP. What is being used? Routing regular data traffic over that tunnel could severely impact QoS of the VoIP. I've done some third party network installs in environments like you describe and the VoIP is always on a separate ISP circuit.

On the new server. Nothing wrong with doing VM's but you need to get a handle on what host you will use - Hyper-V, VMWare, etc. Also need to leave room for growth in the VM. Something like this will require a pretty hefty piece of iron and that does not come cheap.

I'd think something like a Dell R720, dual processors, 64 gb RAM, PERC RAID, SAS drives. That does not come cheap. I would guess that a server for VM's in your environment, with room for growth, could easily run $8-10k depending on how much HD space you are getting. And that is without any OS's.

You need to draw up plan for this based on their needs. If they are using digital radiography/imaging that will significantly at to the storage needs.
 
Telco - As Telecom is not my specialty (on any level really), I'll have to check with the Telecom Company. It's definitely something I'd like to learn about. They deploy this system pretty regularly as I understand, so they should have answers.

VMs - I've always had pretty solid luck with Hyper-V... it's what we run in our office for our three servers and a few clients that run Exchange, SQL, AD/DC and File Services... Is there any primary benefit to one over the other?

Server - I understand the dual processors, PERC RAID and SAS drives, but do you think 64 GB of RAM is really necessary? I was thinking 32 should be okay. RAM is cheap and easy to upgrade. They aren't looking at expanding again anytime in the next three or four years I actually know.

Space - They're currently using less than 100 GB of storage on their server. It's been in production for at least five years, maybe more - so I don't think that's a huge issue necessarily.

Thanks very much for your input Mark. You've given me some things to absolutely look at.
 
Only have 3-4 minutes to type something tonight...but from a quick glance, I'd say this will be a fun project over 50 possibly around 75 grand.

Need more detail on their storage needs, and other applications...as well as the primary application.

Right off the bat 1x honking physical server at Site A...running a hypervisor. I'd want at least 4x instances in it.
*DC...nothing else
*Database Server
*File and Print Storage
*Remote Desktop services

Site B...probably another physical host...running a hypervisor.
*DC..nothing else
*File and Print storage...could run DFS with the F&P server at Site A

You say a 50/50 connection? How many users have to be concurrently tapped into that medical program? Could actually run quite a few of them live through a 50 meg pipe (realistically around 35-40 megs considering overhead but still that's a dang fast tunnel). Depending on the program, might work...or might not. Could also weigh getting Comcast to do a 100 meg point to point between the locations and totally skip the terminal server.

Early November for a due date? Yikes!
 
On the VoIP thing. The problem you run into is the VoIP provider only cares about the VoIP. That's what they are contracted to do. I mentioned this because I have run into these problems in the past. Where the VoIP is running over the same circuit as the data and there are QoS problems. The VoIP provider is limited in what they can do.

On the server. Sounds like you can go with a bit less than I mentioned. Yes memory is cheap as are HD's so could save some money there up front. I will say that dual processor is a must since that is not a simple, inexpensive upgrade. I would look at the client software requirements. I'd guess then that 32 RAM should be OK.

On a host. I've never really worked with Hyper-V. I have VMWare on my Dell R710 and have worked in other environments with it as well. Been very reliable. I prefer VMware since the bare metal layer is significantly less than Hyper-V. But just a personal preference. I'm sure there are implementation and support options that make Hyper-V a better option with M$ OS's.

Edit: listen to YeOldeStonecat. He's had plenty of Hyper-V fun from what I have read.
 
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VMWare, you have the *nix skin...so less of an operating system load on the hypervisor platform itself. I actually still prefer the VMWare setup for larger setups with more guests.

Microsofts Hyper-V...the GUI version...has a bit more bloat. Hey..it's Windows. Granted..when you configure the Hyper-V role..it trims down that OS a bit. I've done this for setups where there 2 maybe 3 guests. I don't use this for larger setups. Pro's..you get the GUI. Some offices have staff that do occasional light stuff on the server..so they like to walk up to a server and "do stuff". Cons...it's a Windows OS...so yeah it needs those Microsoft updates and reboots now 'n then. So in doing so of course you're bouncing the guests too.

Then there's the "Core" version of Hyper-V. Not GUI...just command line. Need to admin it from another server or a Win8 box with the remote console. Similar to an ESX host...nothing really to see on the local screen..gotta manage it remotely. Only...no GUI tools yet like VMwares VSphere Client. One day perhaps. Pros...leaner...thus more uptime like VMware. Cons...no local GUI.
 
First, YeOldeStonecat,

Storage needs are at the moment less than 100 GB, and as I said, the current server has been in production for at least five years. I wouldn’t anticipate it changing too much over the next five years. Obviously, I want to make sure they have the room regardless (increasing storage is a pain), so I was thinking either 300 or 600 GB SAS drives. The cost difference actually doesn’t seem that dramatic between the two regardless on the PowerEdge R320.

Really the only application that they use is MedInformatix. It’s the first time I’ve seen it and I do work with a few other Doctor’s Offices… I could be entirely wrong about this, but I believe that the SQL Server that I mentioned running Windows Server 2008 is hosting the database. It was put in place last year. It’s got dual Intel Xeon’s and 16 GB of RAM (currently at about 75% utilization).

Their local computers run Microsoft Office and that’s about it.

As far as Site B, would you advise two servers given their current RDP use? This is something I’m not entirely sure of. I suppose they would replicate so as to prevent heavy WAN traffic at Site B? Please advise… I do take it though that the server at Site B would be a bit less hefty since all its running is DC and FS? It is a route I was considering (two servers), but the cost seems extremely high and it is a Doctor's Office... (All of my previous experience with Doctor's Offices seems to be that Doctors are rather cheap. Though I hate to generalize...)

Concurrently, they would likely have between twenty and thirty users utilizing their program. The employees move between rooms, and are not often all logged into every computer at once.

markverhyden,

On the first note, you would be absolutely right, except that the VoIP provider is also an IT Services company, just like mine and they are counter-bidding... My client will likely receive both quotes at the same time.

I completely agree with you regarding the processors… that’s something that has to be done with that many concurrent users.

We used VM-Ware at one point for our own hosted server in a datacenter. We hosted websites, a terminal services client and etcetera… The cost just didn’t make sense for us. In all honesty, my experience with VM-Ware is pretty lacking overall.

Different Note,

I appreciate both of your inputs, as I said, I’ve never done a deployment this size. YeOldeStoneCat, I’ll be looking for your response when you have more time… I’ve followed quite a few of your posts.

Print Services,

Is this something that is still done?... I haven’t utilized Server Print Services in a long time, I’ve only done with IP printing… to skip the server entirely. More difficult management I suppose, but I’ve always seemed to have less trouble with it.
 
It strikes me that basically all my work is ASAP YeOldStonecat...

In addition to this, I've got a new business config (5 users, server, computers, guest and admin wireless. Seriously fun job and location though, I'll probably post pictures once the building is done), a non-profit in need of a replacement server for their SBS 2008 and their twelve computers, followed by a restaurant in need of a new POS system and network overhall, and finally, setting up the downtown of Napa with twenty WAPs for Public Wireless.

Good stuff, overall, just a lot of work. I prefer it this way though, I like being busy. It's why I started in IT - keeps me interested and entertained all the time because there's something new, different or challenging.
 
Guest wireless is a big no-no in a medical office with one exception. Completely separate network. One way to do this is with a second ip from the isp. Switch in front of everything with cable going to utm for network and second cable going to edge device for the guest network. I know you can do hot lan or separate v-lan, but HIPAA makes me nervous and I tend to over-do in that concern.

Forget the 3 series Dell servers. Move to at least the 6xxx series. You'll need expansion eventually, and those platforms will handle it and are bullet-proof. 10k rpm storage is fine, but 15k is better. Don't just think of one spindle (array) with virtualization. Let's take stoney's recommendation of 4 vms. You'd want one small slow (or fast if in budget) raid 1 for the host, a shared raid 10 for dc and the file and print vm (need 10k at least with that many users), nice fast raid 1 for rds since we're running medical software, fast raid 10 for db and emr services. You'll need a good perc (or maybe two) for all that. Call your server rep. You can never have too much ram in virtualization. I tend to overprovision if possible. Two hex-core xeons with hyper threading will give you 24 cores to split your vms.
 
Dragnix122507 said:
YeOldeStoneCat, I’ll be looking for your response when you have more time… I’ve followed quite a few of your posts.

Print Services,

Is this something that is still done?... I haven’t utilized Server Print Services in a long time, I’ve only done with IP printing…
Click to expand...

I'd lean towards the Angry ones posts....he has way more experience with medical offices than I do.

With VMWare and Hyper-V servers....I like going with at least 6 drives.
1x pair RAID 1 for the host OS...and I'll typically put the "C" drives of the guests on this drive also. And I've been doing 1x large RAID 10 volume lately for the big D drive of the hose....to put the D drives of the guests on. So at least 4 drives here...been doing 6 drives for the RAID 10 lately.

With such a large secondary office...,.yeah I think a local DC for Site B would benefit. Gives you redundancy for your AD...and with larger numbers...gives your remote workstations faster login. Granted you'll have that 50 meg pipe 'tween 'em...but still..nice to have a local DC for such a large secondary site IMO.

Print Services...yes use it! Since Server 08...the print manager makes it WICKED easy to deploy printers via a GUI based cover for GPO deployment. Plug in your network printers...grab 'em via DHCP and create reservations for them (like 192.168.10.20, 192.168.10.21, .22, etc). Install them on the server with print drives (universal print drivers are nice). Now with the print manager you can install them to all computers with a few clicks of the mouse! They'll automatically get it within seconds of login. (organize computers in OUs for this). Addition and removal of printers is now incredibly easy with this, as well as when you replace workstations or add new ones.

Yes at the very least Dells 6 series...their 7 series seems to be touted as more for virtualization. Take option for second drive bay to have expansion ready for down the road.
Site B could go for 6 series if crunching budget.

Gotta hit the road...will be on later this afternoon and more over the weekend..pretty jammed today.
(notices A_G posting past midnight)
 
Just a quick note...Server standard edition has a 32 gig RAM limit...so for the central office might want to kick up to a higher edition (not to mention the flexibility for included guest licenses in Hyper-V). Prolly Std edition for Site B would be fine...don't see that sucking up over 32 gigs and Std includes licenses for 2x guests.
 
I would probably recommend hyper v server 2012 for site a. It's free and light weight for the host. You would still need licensing for your guest environments. Or you could go with 2012 datacenter which has unlimited virtualization licensing.
 
a_g,

I think that using a separate IP for a guest network shouldn’t be a problem. I think they already have a block of IPs anyway and they aren’t using most of them.

I was thinking at least a 6xxx series in the primary office if not a 7xxx series. Probably a 6xxx series in the second office as it will be running only half the number of virtual machines.

YeOldeStoncat,

I’m definitely going with your recommendation of a second DC both for redundancy and faster operation at site B.

Sorry, my last experience in a location where there was more than just a few network printers was at a school that used a Windows 2000 box for print services and it was a disaster… I think… It was seven or eight years ago, back when I was still at that school.

I did not know about the 32 GB RAM limit – good info. I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere, I just don’t often come across that much RAM with my clients.

a_g,

I’m still not sold on Server 2012, but I suppose I’ll look into it.

In Conclusion,

Couple of things… I keep reading mentions of budget. I think it’s important for me to state that I don’t have a budget for this. I’m putting in a competing bid with one other company (the same one that does their telecom). It’s really my best judgment what they can afford or want to spend on this project. Given that I think I’m going to give them a few options and sit down to go over all of it with them.

Option # 1 (this is what I am going to recommend primarily)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R720, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P. As I said, the database is actually hosted on a separate machine. Every time they move it they have to pay an outrageous service fee to the company that owns the program and the server it’s on is specifically dedicated to run the database, SQL, etc.

Site B – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Standard Edition, Intel Xeon, 16 GB RAM, 4 Primary Drives in RAID 10, two VMs, one a Redundant DC and the other F&P. I’m trying to think of a better config for the hard drives, but a RAID 1 and a RAID 10 seems a bit overkill for the much lighter load on this server, doesn’t it?... Of course, maybe just slower drives than the first machine, but in the same config?

Option # 2 (second possibility)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P.

Site B – Dell PowerEdge R320, Server 2008 Standard Edition, Intel Xeon, 16 GB RAM, 4 Primary Drives in RAID 10, two VMs, one a redundant DC and the other F&P.

Option # 3 (cheapest possibility, definitely not recommended, but if they really don’t want to spend that much…)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P.

Site B – No Server

This way they have the primary option that I think they should go with, a secondary that will still do everything necessary, and a final one if they just don’t want to spend that much. Of course, I’m going to strongly advise them against Option # 3.

Something else that hasn’t been mentioned… As I’ve never done a deployment this size I really am not sure how long it will take. My best guess is what I’ve got. I was thinking for two servers at two locations, thirty workstations at two locations, antivirus at two locations, network equipment at the new location it would be approximately forty hours, maybe estimate sixty just to cover my a**. Does that seem realistic? My experience with redundant Domain Controllers is also a bit lacking to be honest. I get the general theory/principal of it and I’ve set up replication once before simply to transfer over permissions/user accounts. Fortunately, I suppose since there’s a VPN tunnel between the two offices they’ll all be on the same subnet at least…
 
I think you're getting confused. Hyper v server 2012 is a completely different os. It's free from Microsoft. Command line only, no gui. You manage it remotely. Server 2012 datacenter has your metro, but unlimited vm licensing. I would go hyper v server, then buy an enterprise license of 08 or separate standard licenses.
 
this is still a small setup in my mind.

Dell server, raid 1/raid 10 with sas drives, xeon 6 core or dual depend on budget. 48gb or more, quad nic

go with t420 or higher.

id put all the servers in vm. one for ad/ file, one for rds, one for s app.

don't think you need server at location 2 if they are using pc to remote in. ideally get office on the terminal box and use thin clients at site 2

depending on the other server I would set that up with hyper v and use veam or something add replication target. give them some redundancy or sell on datto.

I'm digging server 2012 and hyper v, all my sites are on it even with single vm. I have site with 6 and no issues. everything just runs so smooth.


I do server standard so I have gui. doesn't cost anything since you get 2 vm out of it.
 
Dragnix122507 said:
a_g,

I think that using a separate IP for a guest network shouldn’t be a problem. I think they already have a block of IPs anyway and they aren’t using most of them.

I was thinking at least a 6xxx series in the primary office if not a 7xxx series. Probably a 6xxx series in the second office as it will be running only half the number of virtual machines.

YeOldeStoncat,

I’m definitely going with your recommendation of a second DC both for redundancy and faster operation at site B.

Sorry, my last experience in a location where there was more than just a few network printers was at a school that used a Windows 2000 box for print services and it was a disaster… I think… It was seven or eight years ago, back when I was still at that school.

I did not know about the 32 GB RAM limit – good info. I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere, I just don’t often come across that much RAM with my clients.

a_g,

I’m still not sold on Server 2012, but I suppose I’ll look into it.

In Conclusion,

Couple of things… I keep reading mentions of budget. I think it’s important for me to state that I don’t have a budget for this. I’m putting in a competing bid with one other company (the same one that does their telecom). It’s really my best judgment what they can afford or want to spend on this project. Given that I think I’m going to give them a few options and sit down to go over all of it with them.

Option # 1 (this is what I am going to recommend primarily)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R720, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P. As I said, the database is actually hosted on a separate machine. Every time they move it they have to pay an outrageous service fee to the company that owns the program and the server it’s on is specifically dedicated to run the database, SQL, etc.

Site B – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Standard Edition, Intel Xeon, 16 GB RAM, 4 Primary Drives in RAID 10, two VMs, one a Redundant DC and the other F&P. I’m trying to think of a better config for the hard drives, but a RAID 1 and a RAID 10 seems a bit overkill for the much lighter load on this server, doesn’t it?... Of course, maybe just slower drives than the first machine, but in the same config?

Option # 2 (second possibility)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P.

Site B – Dell PowerEdge R320, Server 2008 Standard Edition, Intel Xeon, 16 GB RAM, 4 Primary Drives in RAID 10, two VMs, one a redundant DC and the other F&P.

Option # 3 (cheapest possibility, definitely not recommended, but if they really don’t want to spend that much…)

Site A – Dell PowerEdge R620, Server 2008 Enterprise Edition, Dual Intel Xeons, 32 GB RAM, 2 Primary Drives in RAID 1 for OS, 4 Secondary Drives in RAID 10 for VMs. I’ll have the Virtual Host, followed up with a DC, RDS, F&P.

Site B – No Server

This way they have the primary option that I think they should go with, a secondary that will still do everything necessary, and a final one if they just don’t want to spend that much. Of course, I’m going to strongly advise them against Option # 3.

Something else that hasn’t been mentioned… As I’ve never done a deployment this size I really am not sure how long it will take. My best guess is what I’ve got. I was thinking for two servers at two locations, thirty workstations at two locations, antivirus at two locations, network equipment at the new location it would be approximately forty hours, maybe estimate sixty just to cover my a**. Does that seem realistic? My experience with redundant Domain Controllers is also a bit lacking to be honest. I get the general theory/principal of it and I’ve set up replication once before simply to transfer over permissions/user accounts. Fortunately, I suppose since there’s a VPN tunnel between the two offices they’ll all be on the same subnet at least…
Click to expand...

Back when I worked in sales, oilfield services, I would always provide multiple quotes. But I always put the one I wanted in the middle so to speak. I would never put in an option that I felt was not really feasible since if they chose it I would be faced with supporting/defending the option.

You also need to find a way to insure business continuity in the event of a ISP failure. These things do happen. This would include both offices since it appears the LoB app is just in the main office. Many places now have 3/4g modems setup for fail over purposes. Another thing is to think about power outages. These are some things you can bring up to help differentiate yourself from the other company if you include them in your bid/plan.

On the labor part. I think 40 hours may be possible but you need to make sure to leave yourself leeway as you mentioned. Setting things up in a lab will help tremendously prior to installation.
 
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