Careful about unethical web designers over-charging for theme work

[tankman1989]

It's sad that the old saying "If you want something done right, do it yourself" is still alive and kicking. I would have hoped that with so much specialization in today's world that finding people to do specialized work would have gotten easier rather than harder (or just as hard).

I started a thread about a month ago about the results I got from posting an ad looking for a web designer. I made the mistake of saying where most of the responses originated and was called a racist for it, it makes me wonder what the demographics are of this site.

Well, to make sure that I didn't falsely accuse the designer/developer I have been doing a lot of research into themes and templates that are available - largely looking for one that I might use for my sites.

In my search I found an exact replica of the "original template" that the designer supposedly worked up for me, it was just a jpg of what the site layout would look like. The charge was 5 hours at $15/hr, which is about 2 weeks wage in their country of origin. I claimed that they were scamming or not a professional developer if it took them that long and was called a racist for that as well, lol.

Well, today I found a theme that is 95% identical (he changed the site title to fit my business with the banner I sent him) - that has been available and free for over a year. Not only was this scammer lying to me he was committing copyright infringement by claiming it was his original work.

I'm not going to open the same can of worms as the last time but I will say that any business who is looking for a web developer to beware of hiring outside the US in the normal "out sourcing" countries - IDK about countries like Great Britain, Australia, NZ, etc I imagine those won't have the same results as i've talked to developers from them and they seemed more price appropriate (maybe being more specific and "explicit in project expectations would clear up issues). Some of these scammers are using US based VoIP numbers to make it look like they are US based so if you want to verify that they are local I would ask for a mailing address - mail something which they can verify by calling you back as soon as they receive it - to verify that they are US based. So if you are in NYC and mail to Arkansas (where my guy "was) they should get the mail in 2-3 days and call you as soon as they get it and verify the contents. If you don't do something like this IDK what you can expect from a business relationship with them.

Good luck and be careful unless you are dealing face to face.

[compnet]

Originally Posted by tankman1989

I claimed that they were scamming or not a professional developer if it took them that long and was called a racist for that as well, lol.

You were called racist for calling an entire country that is 1/6th the world's population lazy based on your interaction with a few people.. Don't know why I'm posting, you still won't get it.

And most people here won't need some mail scheme to avoid getting scammed, they have common sense.

[Cornerstone Technologies]

Its best to find someone local, if you are going to source someone that is going to do this for you. In our area (Pennsylvania) you will have a hard time finding someone that can do what is requested for under $1000. I labored over hiring out for someone that can do this as well, and I got quotes from $200 (complete **** by the way) to $10K. The truth of the matter, many of the people I talked to that I leaned towards were just re-jiggering a Wordpress theme. I just spend the time looking for a theme that was comparable with what I wanted to do.

I would keep looking at wordpress, as it is unbelievably easy to work with.

[16k_zx81]

Tank, whethre you like it or not you're in a global marketplace. What that means is that essentially cheap labour prices are readily available through an open market.

As is the case with any market, business owners want to (need to) cut labour costs so that they can compete. On an otherwise even playing field, the guy who's paying 100% for local labour is going to lose out to the guy who's paying 30% or 50% of that by outsourcing offshore.

While I share your lament that this means that 'first world' countries miss out on the jobs, I cant share your criticism that quality work is somehow the exclusive domain of countries with wealth.

Ive done a lot of outsourcing, and while the addage 'you get what you pay for' is generally true within a given population, its soon proved false when comparing first with third world labour. The quality and professionalism is there as long as you are prepared to pay a reasonable OFFSHORE rate for the work.

The principles of hiring are the same - look for references and experience. Verify this before the hire, and generally speaking, that will provide a level of protection.

To generalise that workers 'offshore' are somehow en-masse producing lesser quality work is simply wrong in my experience.

There is also a significant issue here of management. Where most of us are used to managing staff face-to-face, there's a different skillset involved in managing staff online, via email, and in the context of conversations where other parties do not have English as a first language. This is not prohibitive, but requires developing a totally different approach to get the same result that would be possible using 'local' skilled staff.

--

An aside, on the subject of 'racism', personally I think most of us are here to discuss professional and technical issues.

For those who want to slam others because of their personal beliefs, its certainly not conducive to technical and professional exchange of ideas.

There are plenty of forums where political discussions are available to be entered into. This isnt the place for it.
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[Paul Rodgers]

Everyone you do business with has the potential to be a scammer. Use your head and don't send payment until you see a working version of the final product.

[callthatgirl]

The charge was 5 hours at $15/hr,



You kinda got what you paid for. Most website designers I know charge $40-$75.

[NorthernSpares]

Originally Posted by callthatgirl

The charge was 5 hours at $15/hr,



You kinda got what you paid for. Most website designers I know charge $40-$75.

Agree... I don't know if you have come across the saying "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys" It holds true. In your part of the world I am sure there is someone who would be happy to take the work from you for the appropriate compensation however if your not willing to pay the going rate, expect the worst*

*Disclamer.

I know people who are prepared to work for peanuts however there are good reasons for this. Students wanting to build portfolio's. People who are on the Breadline with skills (Sadly too many) and people who you have built good, proper and honest relationships with who would be only too happy to help a bud for a couple of quid. YMMV However.

[tankman1989]

Originally Posted by callthatgirl

The charge was 5 hours at $15/hr,



You kinda got what you paid for. Most website designers I know charge $40-$75.

I would agree with you if they were from the US. I found the guy who was advertising as a "local" Web developer who I later found out was located in India. I didn't want to be accused of being a racist for not giving him a chance so I agreed to allow him to work up a proposal and when we talked about pay I was blown a way by what he demanded. I still found that $15/hr there was better than $65 if he was going to be doing about 5 sites and I was paying out of pocket, I figured I'd give him a chance. He comes back with a screen shot of a popular free theme with my company banner pasted across the banner section and said that work had taken him 5 hours. I told him he either wasn't a professional if that took him that long for just an image with no coding or he was a scammer.

I just recently emailed him from another email domain and he is still running his scam, IDK if anyone actually falls for it but if he makes $40, that is what he makes in a week at his job, so scamming people is well worth it for him. virtually NO risk and HIGH payoff, all reasons to commit a crime. This is why I warned people about these scams.

[anglian]

So anyone charging less than the average for your local market but more than they can earn in their local market is a scammer.

I have outsourced work to people all over the world, I look at the results and the amount I pay for the work, If I oay someone $300 for a weeks work where the average salary in their location is $1/week then good for them. As long as the work is up to scratch I am OK with that.

It is a shame that they tried to sell you a template for $75, but in all fairness WTF do you expect for $75? Even outsourcing to poorer countries this is still cheap and I would expect nothing more than a ripped template for that amount of money.

[altrenda]

I don't know why you care about the going wages in your contractors country.

You asked for a service, got quoted a price, it's either worth it to you or it isn't. Are you trying to take advantage of him because he lives in a lower income country?

I don't tell my clients my costs or expenses; they either agree to my rates or go somewhere else if they don't like my prices.

If you can't do it yourself on Wordpress or Squarespace, maybe it's worth what he's charging to modify that existing theme.