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geekhelp4u
05-12-2011, 06:49 PM
Wow...

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/12/apple-restricts-hard-drive-replacements-on-new-imacs-2/

iisjman07
05-12-2011, 06:54 PM
I can't say I'm surprised by the apple idea of restricting users flexibility, but wow...

wimwauters
05-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Yep, that's Apple. They think the own their customers. Sad thing is, most of them are happy slaves :(

anonymous Mac Tech
05-12-2011, 07:21 PM
Apple has already been trying to do this for years. This is just the first (or second) time that a workaround hasn't been blatantly obvious.

Jory
05-12-2011, 07:38 PM
With all the crap they pull you'd think people would stop buying their products, but unfortunately there is enough stupid people with excess money to keep them in business.

Knightsman
05-12-2011, 07:41 PM
Another reason why I will never buy an apple product.

seedubya
05-12-2011, 08:25 PM
Yep, that's Apple. They think the own their customers. Sad thing is, most of them are happy slaves :(

Yep, Apple B****es...........

Ccomp5950
05-12-2011, 08:26 PM
I really don't find this surprising. The Mac computer is the biggest hardware security dongle ever invented.

anonymous Mac Tech
05-12-2011, 09:50 PM
Its funny that everyone posting on this thread is basically hating on Apple. Yes, maybe it is partially a control thing. But at the same time Apple has been using Hard drive temp sensors for years. This has not been on all equipment either. The trend started and has been limited to the all in one units, specifically the iMac. It all started with Imac G5s with the sensor mounted on the frame that secures the drive in the machine. Then with the later versions of the G5 iMac and the first Intel Imac was the cable plugged into the sensor which the was stuck onto the drive with adhesive. Then the aluminum iMacs introduced just the single sensor and cable which was stuck onto the drive, again with adhesive. The later versions of the Aluminum iMacs introduced the actual plug-in sensor where the drive themselves had actual pins in the drive. Now they have combined the SATA power cable and sensor into one, along with custom firmware on the drives controller board. I for one over the years have replaced hundreds of drives in these machines for heat related failures. Maybe over the years, the engineers have been working with drive manufacturers to find the best way to monitor temperature and provide adequate HD thermal control on these things and this was best that they came with? Yeah, people are going to be pissed and automatically point to Apple as the bad guy because Apple didn't take pity on Joe Blow who wants to swap his own drive or put in a larger one. But is Apple supposed to care about that? They are concerned with providing the most cost effective and functional method to address hard drive stability in their product.

Ccomp5950
05-12-2011, 10:30 PM
I wasn't hating, simply stating a fact.

The control mentality in a digital world is a dead end at best and up hill battle at worst.

Nodak
05-13-2011, 01:30 AM
One of the reasons I tell all my customers to also stay away from Sony products. Too much proprietary crap.

14049752
05-13-2011, 01:39 AM
Its funny that everyone posting on this thread is basically hating on Apple. Yes, maybe it is partially a control thing. But at the same time Apple has been using Hard drive temp sensors for years. This has not been on all equipment either. The trend started and has been limited to the all in one units, specifically the iMac. It all started with Imac G5s with the sensor mounted on the frame that secures the drive in the machine. Then with the later versions of the G5 iMac and the first Intel Imac was the cable plugged into the sensor which the was stuck onto the drive with adhesive. Then the aluminum iMacs introduced just the single sensor and cable which was stuck onto the drive, again with adhesive. The later versions of the Aluminum iMacs introduced the actual plug-in sensor where the drive themselves had actual pins in the drive. Now they have combined the SATA power cable and sensor into one, along with custom firmware on the drives controller board. I for one over the years have replaced hundreds of drives in these machines for heat related failures. Maybe over the years, the engineers have been working with drive manufacturers to find the best way to monitor temperature and provide adequate HD thermal control on these things and this was best that they came with? Yeah, people are going to be pissed and automatically point to Apple as the bad guy because Apple didn't take pity on Joe Blow who wants to swap his own drive or put in a larger one. But is Apple supposed to care about that? They are concerned with providing the most cost effective and functional method to address hard drive stability in their product.

I was going to post something almost identical to this. Everyone likes to complain about Apple, but when you get right down to it, their systems are among the highest quality systems on the market. That's not to say they're perfect or don't have problems....but give me a Macbook Pro unibody vs ANY PC brand even at a comparable cost...nothing comes close to being built as well.

The fact is, the proprietary drive is going to probably cause repairs to be more expensive than they should be, or make someone unable to upgrade.... but someone shouldn't be buying an iMac to upgrade the thing. It's a pretty much closed system with nearly 100% proprietary parts. Eventually there'll be an adapter or work-around for those that really want to do this, anyway.

Knightsman
05-13-2011, 02:19 AM
Its funny that everyone posting on this thread is basically hating on Apple. Yes, maybe it is partially a control thing. But at the same time Apple has been using Hard drive temp sensors for years. This has not been on all equipment either. The trend started and has been limited to the all in one units, specifically the iMac. It all started with Imac G5s with the sensor mounted on the frame that secures the drive in the machine. Then with the later versions of the G5 iMac and the first Intel Imac was the cable plugged into the sensor which the was stuck onto the drive with adhesive. Then the aluminum iMacs introduced just the single sensor and cable which was stuck onto the drive, again with adhesive. The later versions of the Aluminum iMacs introduced the actual plug-in sensor where the drive themselves had actual pins in the drive. Now they have combined the SATA power cable and sensor into one, along with custom firmware on the drives controller board. I for one over the years have replaced hundreds of drives in these machines for heat related failures. Maybe over the years, the engineers have been working with drive manufacturers to find the best way to monitor temperature and provide adequate HD thermal control on these things and this was best that they came with? Yeah, people are going to be pissed and automatically point to Apple as the bad guy because Apple didn't take pity on Joe Blow who wants to swap his own drive or put in a larger one. But is Apple supposed to care about that? They are concerned with providing the most cost effective and functional method to address hard drive stability in their product.

Oh yeah, because they are "great engineers" who found a better way to do this...oh.. funny how TOSHIBA< DELL< IBM< ACER< HP...I could go on...figured out how to keep their machines cool and not restrict the user from replacing the drive.

If they are truly concerned about stability and "cost effective" way. Then that shows they care more about themselves then what the EU will have to go through with a hard drive failure. Which could happen at any point in time in the age of the machine.

There are plenty of high quality machines, cars, houses, etc that are effective, functional and are stable, without killing the wallets of consumers.


I was going to post something almost identical to this. Everyone likes to complain about Apple, but when you get right down to it, their systems are among the highest quality systems on the market. That's not to say they're perfect or don't have problems....but give me a Macbook Pro unibody vs ANY PC brand even at a comparable cost...nothing comes close to being built as well.

The fact is, the proprietary drive is going to probably cause repairs to be more expensive than they should be, or make someone unable to upgrade.... but someone shouldn't be buying an iMac to upgrade the thing. It's a pretty much closed system with nearly 100% proprietary parts. Eventually there'll be an adapter or work-around for those that really want to do this, anyway.

IBM and Sony machines are clearly built better than apples....no contest. (of course thats my opinion, not fact)

Just because they look smoother and are cleaner doesn't make them a higher quality machine than the rest. (your opinion, not fact) When apples start sharing the same market as PC's your going to see just as many of them fail.

And saying people shouldn't be buying imacs to upgrade? Who the hell are you to tell someone what and how they buy it. You dont control the world, and Apple shouldnt be trying.

Lastly, I HATE Apple...

want to know why???

Google: APPLE LABOR, issues, abuse, suicides, etc.

But go ahead, be an apple lover because of their "AWESOME" product.

anonymous Mac Tech
05-13-2011, 04:29 AM
Oh yeah, because they are "great engineers" who found a better way to do this...oh.. funny how TOSHIBA< DELL< IBM< ACER< HP...I could go on...figured out how to keep their machines cool and not restrict the user from replacing the drive.

Believe me I'm not thrilled about this and it really hurts us that we can't throw any third party drive in these things when they are out of warranty. This just goes to show I'm not being a typical fanboy.

However, you know you are comparing an iMac which is an all in one desktop compared to a bunch of towers. This is pretty much comparing Apples to oranges. Basically in a tower it doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep drives cool. All kinds of space for airflow. Have you ever even taken apart an iMac? It's has about the same quality of ventilation than a laptop. Worse yet, the drive and all other components are sandwiched behind a huge display that is throwing off all kinds of heat. Now if you want to compare Apples to Apples so to speak, lets look at any of the Power Mac G3, G4, or G5 towers, along with the Mac Pro compared to just about any other desktop on the market. I barely ever see these things in the shop (I'll be honest and say with the exception was the liquid cooled G5 tower, big mistake on Apples part). Basically the occasional HD or power supply needs to be replaced every so often due to the fact these things fail. Other than that, they just keep on running. Also, Genius, why is Apple only doing this on the iMacs and not on every unit if they are so controlling. The Mac Pro comes with one drive bay full and 3 empty drive bays for throwing in any type of SATA 3.5" drive you want to throw in there. So lets make this simple to understand. Just like the point that 14049752 was trying to explain, if you want to swap your drive then don't buy a closed system.

Avgsmoe
05-13-2011, 05:53 AM
Apples have their place in the market and I'm glad they do. If nothing else they set good price exceptions.

When you buy an apple you're not buying an os or hardware, but both. If you don't like either don't buy it. If someone brings one in to work on, and you know how, you can make good money fixing it.

Only way they can gain significant market share, IMHO, would be to open OSX for any hardware. This isn't what they want though. The control they have over their systems keeps the per sale profit higher. That is why they make choices like this. If this wasn't making them more money they wouldn't be doing it.

Tekguy
05-13-2011, 12:52 PM
Does anyone know approximately what Apple charges (parts & labor) to replace an iMac hard drive?

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Wow. Leave it to "computers techs" to hate on a product they know little to nothing about. If some of you guys would spend half as much time learning how to work on Macs as you do bitching about them and remaining close minded you would probably make more money. But wait, I'll bet you are the same guys that have been proclaiming Linux will be on every desktop soon....lol


Yep, that's Apple. They think the own their customers. Sad thing is, most of them are happy slaves


I think most Apple customers are very loyal because Apple makes a very good product. High quality hardware combined with the OS is a hard combo to beat. You can call it being a slave but I think most Apple users would look at you running AV , Ccleaner, defrags, scans ect just to keep the windows box running and call you a slave. Or how about fiddling endlessly with drivers in terminal in Linux just to get your sound or wireless to work?


With all the crap they pull you'd think people would stop buying their products, but unfortunately there is enough stupid people with excess money to keep them in business.


I would expect more out of you. Really? Wow.

Avgsmoe
05-13-2011, 01:48 PM
I think most Apple customers are very loyal because Apple makes a very good product. High quality hardware combined with the OS is a hard combo to beat. You can call it being a slave but I think most Apple users would look at you running AV , Ccleaner, defrags, scans ect just to keep the windows box running and call you a slave. Or how about fiddling endlessly with drivers in terminal in Linux just to get your sound or wireless to work?

I mostly agree with you, but have a couple points.

I don't know about your market, but in wa state in the US, most Mac users are different. One customer of mine just upgraded to the sandy bridge Macbook pro, not because she needed it (her "old" one was the last gen) but because there was a newer model available. She's not alone in her upgrade pattern, but not all Mac users work this way. Windows users tend to squeeze every last once out of a system. Most of the time a major failure cause the update. Brilliant marketing by apple, but I think that mentality, buying every product, and update available, which you only see with apple fanboys, was what they meant by slave.

On windows users being slaves, you bet, Linux too. None of them are perfect, but they all have a place. Do you really defrag and run temp file cleaners that much? On my personal system, when I'm in windows, I don't even run an AV. I recommend people do though. You need to watch out with that comment now. I've had 2 macs in this week with rogue apps. You also must not use Linux much, because I have no problems setting up and running Linux. It's very easy, but I'm not saying it's ready for end users. There is a lot I can only do in Linux where as with Mac vs windows, it's generally a preference. I like and use all of them.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 02:00 PM
I mostly agree with you, but have a couple points.

I don't know about your market, but in wa state in the US, most Mac users are different. One customer of mine just upgraded to the sandy bridge Macbook pro, not because she needed it (her "old" one was the last gen) but because there was a newer model available. She's not alone in her upgrade pattern, but not all Mac users work this way. Windows users tend to squeeze every last once out of a system. Most of the time a major failure, cause the update. Brilliant marketing by apple, but I think that mentality, buying every product, and update available, which you only see with apple fanboys, was what they meant by slave.

On windows users being slaves, you bet, Linux too. None of them are perfect, but they all have a place. Do you really defrag and run temp file cleaners that much? On my personal system, when I'm in windows, I don't even run an AV. I of recommend people do though. You need to watch out with that comment now. I've had 2 macs in this week with rogue apps. You also must not use Linux much, because I have no problems setting up and running Linux. It's very easy, but I'm not saying it's ready for end users. There is a lot I can only do in Linux where as with Mac vs windows, it's generally a preference. I like and use all of them.



Its actually the exact opposite here. Most of the Mac users I know personally keep their Macs for years. I know a few who still have their G3 and G4 machines and are happy campers. Its the PC gamers I see "needing" to upgrade every few months, or in some cases weeks. I mean heck, you just have to have the latest $400 video card to get those last 2-3 FPS outta Crysis.


I run Ccleaner, PureRA, and ATF cleaner on my personal system every day. Defrag about 2-3 times per month. But I'm a bit OCD. I do not use AV and have not in years. As for recommending AV to customers, I used to but these days I just say get a Mac.


I dabble in Linux. So no, I don't use it often. The last time I installed Linux It was Mint on a netbook and it took me about 45 mins and a terminal hack to get the wireless to function. This was maybe 2 months ago. When set up properly it works fine but we are far from the day the typical end user can set up a Linux box with no problems.

14049752
05-13-2011, 03:08 PM
IBM and Sony machines are clearly built better than apples....no contest. (of course thats my opinion, not fact)

Just because they look smoother and are cleaner doesn't make them a higher quality machine than the rest. (your opinion, not fact) When apples start sharing the same market as PC's your going to see just as many of them fail.

And saying people shouldn't be buying imacs to upgrade? Who the hell are you to tell someone what and how they buy it. You dont control the world, and Apple shouldnt be trying.



Why are you so angry? You hate Apple because of their labor practices, fine...you think other manufacturers are better? I doubt it. I'd bet that they just don't get as much press. Most manufacturers use Foxconn parts, just like apple.

As far as Sony and IBM (Sorry...it's Lenovo) machines being better quality than a Macbook Pro unibody.... That's ridiculous. Anyone who's taken all three apart would know better. Sure, it's my opinion, but it's one based on lots of experience. I'm not someone who's impressed by smooth edges and a shiny logo on the back. I am impressed by the engineering that went into it and how it's assembled.

As far as upgrading the iMac....my only point is that it's stupid. If you want to buy an imac to upgrade it...that's also stupid. It's a closed system and it's designed as a "this is what you get" sort of system. I'm not saying that I want to stop anyone from upgrading it...but I don't see why you'd buy THAT machine for that purpose. Want to upgrade it, as it is? Ram and hard drive...that's all you can do. With such limited options, to me, that says that you buy the machine and you use it until you want a new one....upgrading it to get more life out of the system just isn't an option. Finally, the system isn't DESIGNED for people that want to upgrade. Do you understand that point? I'll say it again... It's not a system for people that are going to want to upgrade every few months or years. There are people that that kind of computer is PERFECT for.

Edit: "You dont control the world, and Apple shouldnt be trying."

Really? Apple installs a proprietary hard drive and that's controlling the world? Overly dramatic, much?


That's all I'm going to say in this thread. I think mac bashing is pretty dumb...as is the mac loving. Everything I've said is based on rational thought, not some knee-jerk reaction and need to argue.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 03:27 PM
Why are you so angry? You hate Apple because of their labor practices, fine...you think other manufacturers are better? I doubt it. I'd bet that they just don't get as much press. Most manufacturers use Foxconn parts, just like apple.

As far as Sony and IBM (Sorry...it's Lenovo) machines being better quality than a Macbook Pro unibody.... That's ridiculous. Anyone who's taken all three apart would know better. Sure, it's my opinion, but it's one based on lots of experience. I'm not someone who's impressed by smooth edges and a shiny logo on the back. I am impressed by the engineering that went into it and how it's assembled.

As far as upgrading the iMac....my only point is that it's stupid. If you want to buy an imac to upgrade it...that's also stupid. It's a closed system and it's designed as a "this is what you get" sort of system. I'm not saying that I want to stop anyone from upgrading it...but I don't see why you'd buy THAT machine for that purpose. Want to upgrade it, as it is? Ram and hard drive...that's all you can do. With such limited options, to me, that says that you buy the machine and you use it until you want a new one....upgrading it to get more life out of the system just isn't an option. Finally, the system isn't DESIGNED for people that want to upgrade. Do you understand that point? I'll say it again... It's not a system for people that are going to want to upgrade every few months or years. There are people that that kind of computer is PERFECT for.



That's all I'm going to say in this thread. I think mac bashing is pretty dumb...as is the mac loving. Everything I've said is based on rational thought, not some knee-jerk reaction and need to argue.



Great post! I Know its seems I'm one of the the main guys that comes to Macs defense but its only because of the close minded knee-jerk reaction you speak of. It pisses me off. People who hate on Apple do so for one of a few reason: 1. Its a closed system 2. They can't afford one 3. They don't like someone who uses a Mac. Maybe a combo of the three. But to try to argue against the quality of their system and security of their OS is beyond stupid.


I completely agree that trying to compare the quality of a Sony or Lenovo to a MBP is ridiculous. "my Honda must be better than your BMW because I can modify the engine more and put a nice big spoiler on it" :rolleyes:


Edit: "You dont control the world, and Apple shouldnt be trying."


Looks like Richard Stallman found his way on to Technibble...lol

Knightsman
05-13-2011, 03:31 PM
Why are you so angry? You hate Apple because of their labor practices, fine...you think other manufacturers are better? I doubt it. I'd bet that they just don't get as much press. Most manufacturers use Foxconn parts, just like apple.

As far as Sony and IBM (Sorry...it's Lenovo) machines being better quality than a Macbook Pro unibody.... That's ridiculous. Anyone who's taken all three apart would know better. Sure, it's my opinion, but it's one based on lots of experience. I'm not someone who's impressed by smooth edges and a shiny logo on the back. I am impressed by the engineering that went into it and how it's assembled.

As far as upgrading the iMac....my only point is that it's stupid. If you want to buy an imac to upgrade it...that's also stupid. It's a closed system and it's designed as a "this is what you get" sort of system. I'm not saying that I want to stop anyone from upgrading it...but I don't see why you'd buy THAT machine for that purpose. Want to upgrade it, as it is? Ram and hard drive...that's all you can do. With such limited options, to me, that says that you buy the machine and you use it until you want a new one....upgrading it to get more life out of the system just isn't an option. Finally, the system isn't DESIGNED for people that want to upgrade. Do you understand that point? I'll say it again... It's not a system for people that are going to want to upgrade every few months or years. There are people that that kind of computer is PERFECT for.



That's all I'm going to say in this thread. I think mac bashing is pretty dumb...as is the mac loving. Everything I've said is based on rational thought, not some knee-jerk reaction and need to argue.


im not angry one bit. Just tired of people like you who act like we are "apple haters" when we have a legitimate argument. Yeah..apples the same becuase they get more coverage arguement. Or the fact that their employees are children, commit suicide, etc.. I dont see that with other companies.


I didnt say it was a bad product.
Ive worked on these machines as well, never said it was bad product, only a bad company.

I wasn't talking about lenovo, I was talking about IBM. Im not a huge fan of Lenovo after they bought out that part of IBM.

upgrading it may be stupid to you, but not to someone else. You cant call a customer stupid or what they are doing is stupid because you are not them. We are bashing Apple for what they are doing, not the product. Why are you guys bringing up the "quality of Apple" when we never even spoke about that. Most things are not designed to be "upgraded", that doesn't mean the company needs to purposely restrict it.

btw, calling something stupid is not rational thought. Its arrogance.


BACK ON TOPIC
this thread is about them preventing an end user from doing their own repairs, or having a shop like us do the repairs. I had nothing to do with the "quality" or how good the machines are. We could argue all day about which machine is better, and it all comes down to opinion.

My opinion, as with others on this board, is this is crap, and they should be doing it, and the people buying these products do not realize what they are getting into.


Believe me I'm not thrilled about this and it really hurts us that we can't throw any third party drive in these things when they are out of warranty. This just goes to show I'm not being a typical fanboy.

However, you know you are comparing an iMac which is an all in one desktop compared to a bunch of towers. This is pretty much comparing Apples to oranges. Basically in a tower it doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep drives cool. All kinds of space for airflow. Have you ever even taken apart an iMac? It's has about the same quality of ventilation than a laptop. Worse yet, the drive and all other components are sandwiched behind a huge display that is throwing off all kinds of heat. Now if you want to compare Apples to Apples so to speak, lets look at any of the Power Mac G3, G4, or G5 towers, along with the Mac Pro compared to just about any other desktop on the market. I barely ever see these things in the shop (I'll be honest and say with the exception was the liquid cooled G5 tower, big mistake on Apples part). Basically the occasional HD or power supply needs to be replaced every so often due to the fact these things fail. Other than that, they just keep on running. Also, Genius, why is Apple only doing this on the iMacs and not on every unit if they are so controlling. The Mac Pro comes with one drive bay full and 3 empty drive bays for throwing in any type of SATA 3.5" drive you want to throw in there. So lets make this simple to understand. Just like the point that 14049752 was trying to explain, if you want to swap your drive then don't buy a closed system.

What? No its not, Sony, Lenovo, HP, they all make all in ones...We dont see these in the shop because most apple owners believe you have to go to an apple place to get it repaired.

Also, Genius, Apple will eventually put it on all the machines. Lets resort to "name calling" because you thing you are arguing a point, that none of us care about.



------------
Again, Apple shouldn't be restricting this. Its a facepalm. Its like a car manu saying don't replace the battery unless its ours, or your car wont start.

14049752
05-13-2011, 03:37 PM
1. Recognizing stupidity isn't always arrogance.

2. Quality is the heart of the issue. The hard drive is proprietary so that they can have less failures. (I don't give a crap if you disagree with HOW they did it).

3. You said yourself that you hate Apple. And I said that's fine.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 03:44 PM
I didnt say it was a bad product.
Ive worked on these machines as well, never said it was bad product, only a bad company.

Why is Apple a bad company? Because they wont open up their OS so you can stick it into some cobbled together home brew system? Or is it because they all ware black shirts? Thats it isn't it! Its because the all have black shirts on, must be a cult. :p


upgrading it may be stupid to you, but not to someone else. You cant call a customer stupid or what they are doing is stupid because you are not them. We are bashing Apple for what they are doing, not the product. Why are you guys bringing up the "quality of Apple" when we never even spoke about that. Most things are not designed to be "upgraded", that doesn't mean the company needs to purposely restrict it.


If you think you may want to upgrade the HDD in the future or maybe the video card then don't buy an iMac. Its really that simple, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Last time I checked Apple was right up there with some of the top companies in the world. They must be doing something right. Also, why do you assume Mac users are stupid and don't know what they are getting themselves into? Most of the Mac users I know came from the Windows world. The got fed up with the constant maintenance and malware infections. Thats why the made the switch to Mac. I think most Mac users just want to get their work done and create things and not be worried with such things. They are for the most part far from the bumbling idiots you make them out to be.

anonymous Mac Tech
05-13-2011, 04:01 PM
What? No its not, Sony, Lenovo, HP, they all make all in ones...We dont see these in the shop because most apple owners believe you have to go to an apple place to get it repaired.

The we I was referring to was our shop, not yours. We ARE an Apple shop and have been in business for over 20 years.

Also, Genius, Apple will eventually put it on all the machines. Lets resort to "name calling" because you thing you are arguing a point, that none of us care about.

You can predict what Apple will do, when people inside Apple don't even know most of the time? As long as these sensors have been used, I suspect they would have been popping up in other equipment by now. I wasn't calling you a name per say as much as I am amazed by your complete ignorance.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 04:20 PM
I dabble in Linux. So no, I don't use it often. The last time I installed Linux It was Mint on a netbook and it took me about 45 mins and a terminal hack to get the wireless to function. This was maybe 2 months ago. When set up properly it works fine but we are far from the day the typical end user can set up a Linux box with no problems.

By those same standards we're pretty far from the day the typical end user can setup a Windows box with no problems.

Just bought 2 systems from a college that I'm going to resell, no OS on them and no drivers disk of course.

Install Win7 home premium, no video drivers (beyond basic vga), no network drivers, no sound, and some other driver. The kicker? No network drivers, you can't say "Well go to _____ website and get them", uhm how? How are they supposed to get the drivers on the computer? It's their only computer not a shop setup where they can trial and error their way through it or install a handy dandy USB network dongle they have laying around for just such an occasion.

You don't hear of these sorts of situations often because most OEM's and motherboard manufacturers include windows drivers on a disk, they don't do the same for linux. Then we get into a chicken or the egg argument. With Windows having the same support as Linux, Windows becomes nearly impossible for the end user as well.

"To get that kind of support Linux needs to become more popular."

"To get more popular, linux needs that kind of support."

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 04:33 PM
My opinion, as with others on this board, is this is crap, and they should be doing it, and the people buying these products do not realize what they are getting into.


Let me tell you about the Apple users I know personally.

1. Coleen-Mine and my wife's good friend. BA in psychology. Masters in education.

2. Tanya-A good customer of mine. She is a plastic surgeon. Makes in the mid 6 figures.

3. Gareth-Met online a few years ago, became friends. Web designer and graphics.

4. Kim-My wife. Just got her EDS and is 20 hours away from her Doctorate.

5. Eric-Another friend I met online. Final cut pro. Does commercials.

6. Brandon-Final cut, has been involved in some movies we have all seen.


All of these Mac users have two things in common. 1. They all came from the PC/Windows world and switched to Mac. 2. They are all highly educated professionals.


Far from the people you would have us believe are Mac users.






Lastly, I HATE Apple...
want to know why???
Google: APPLE LABOR, issues, abuse, suicides, etc.


Really? Why don't you look at some of Google's business practices while you are at it. I'll bet you still use Google. How about the Sony/rootkit issue a few years ago and their loss of millions of users personal data recently? Still buying Sony products? Don't even get me started on Microsoft.

anonymous Mac Tech
05-13-2011, 04:39 PM
this thread is about them preventing an end user from doing their own repairs, or having a shop like us do the repairs. I had nothing to do with the "quality" or how good the machines are. We could argue all day about which machine is better, and it all comes down to opinion.

My opinion, as with others on this board, is this is crap, and they should be doing it, and the people buying these products do not realize what they are getting into.

"On the other hand, on an all-in-one you're pretty much stuck with the screen, and the parts. You can expand a regular desktop to increase its life span, but an all-in-one PC has serious upgrade limitations. Lenovo's IdeaCentre A600 gets big points because users can upgrade its hard disk, optical drive, memory, and fans; in contrast, the HP TouchSmart PCs and the Sony VAIO VGC-LV180J (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/43066/review/vgclv180j.html) let you upgrade only the memory and hard drive. (A small consolation in the VAIO's case is that an ExpressCard reader allows for laptop-style add-ons.) Apple's iMacs allow you to upgrade the RAM easily, but anything else involves a 21-screw ordeal. The compact Shuttle X50 (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/55884/review/x50_aio.html) also permits memory upgrades; that's noteworthy because every other all-in-one with a screen 19 inches or less--including the Dell--is a completely closed system."

Source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/168576/allinone_pcs_with_a_touch_of_style.html

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 04:49 PM
By those same standards we're pretty far from the day the typical end user can setup a Windows box with no problems.

Just bought 2 systems from a college that I'm going to resell, no OS on them and no drivers disk of course.

Install Win7 home premium, no video drivers (beyond basic vga), no network drivers, no sound, and some other driver. The kicker? No network drivers, you can't say "Well go to _____ website and get them", uhm how? How are they supposed to get the drivers on the computer? It's their only computer not a shop setup where they can trial and error their way through it or install a handy dandy USB network dongle they have laying around for just such an occasion.

You don't hear of these sorts of situations often because most OEM's and motherboard manufacturers include windows drivers on a disk, they don't do the same for linux. Then we get into a chicken or the egg argument. With Windows having the same support as Linux, Windows becomes nearly impossible for the end user as well.

"To get that kind of support Linux needs to become more popular."

"To get more popular, linux needs that kind of support."



I disagree. The last 4 systems I have built when installing Windows 7 it automatically installed the correct drivers all I had to do was tweak a few things.


Um...download them on a working system , put them on a flash drive and install them to the new systems? Thats what I might do.

The the thing is if I install Windows on a machine unless its very old chances are pretty good there are drivers for it out there somewhere. On a Linux box you just might be out of luck. Also when installing drivers on a Windows systems most of the time I double click a "setup.exe" file or point to the driver. I don't have to compile something in terminal and google for an hour.

Knightsman
05-13-2011, 05:06 PM
The we I was referring to was our shop, not yours. We ARE an Apple shop and have been in business for over 20 years.

yeah...i picked up on that, but I think you missed my point.

You can predict what Apple will do, when people inside Apple don't even know most of the time? As long as these sensors have been used, I suspect they would have been popping up in other equipment by now. I wasn't calling you a name per say as much as I am amazed by your complete ignorance.

No, you were stating that I an idiot because I believe they are going to do this more often, and because you disagree, you believe I'm ignorant. Even if the sensor isn't used elsewhere, the practice of making it proprietary and not easily upgraded fixed, will be pushed, and is being pushed by them.

Let me tell you about the Apple users I know personally.

1. Coleen-Mine and my wife's good friend. BA in psychology. Masters in education.

2. Tanya-A good customer of mine. She is a plastic surgeon. Makes in the mid 6 figures.

3. Gareth-Met online a few years ago, became friends. Web designer and graphics.

4. Kim-My wife. Just got her EDS and is 20 hours away from her Doctorate.

5. Eric-Another friend I met online. Final cut pro. Does commercials.

6. Brandon-Final cut, has been involved in some movies we have all seen.


All of these Mac users have two things in common. 1. They all came from the PC/Windows world and switched to Mac. 2. They are all highly educated professionals.

Far from the people you would have us believe are Mac users.

....
Um no..How would you even gather that?? How does saying they don't know what they are getting into...turn into "people are uneducated slaves??" No, im saying general people, smart, dumb, genuis, whatever, dont realize what they are buying, and the company they are supporting.

Id bet money, on the fact that at least 65% of the users do not realize they cant just replace their hard drive. Whether they care to or not, they should still have the option to replace it or upgrade it on their own. Thats the argument here.



Really? Why don't you look at some of Google's business practices while you are at it. I'll bet you still use Google. How about the Sony/rootkit issue a few years ago and their loss of millions of users personal data recently? Still buying Sony products? Don't even get me started on Microsoft.

ok..Did these people commit suicide by the way apple treats them as employees now?? Pretty sure Google got named one of the top companies to work for. Sonys rootkit issue was a privacy concern, shame on them, but different world altogether on why I highly dislike Apples business practices.



off to my next call.

Knightsman
05-13-2011, 05:12 PM
"On the other hand, on an all-in-one you're pretty much stuck with the screen, and the parts. You can expand a regular desktop to increase its life span, but an all-in-one PC has serious upgrade limitations. Lenovo's IdeaCentre A600 gets big points because users can upgrade its hard disk, optical drive, memory, and fans; in contrast, the HP TouchSmart PCs and the Sony VAIO VGC-LV180J (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/43066/review/vgclv180j.html) let you upgrade only the memory and hard drive. (A small consolation in the VAIO's case is that an ExpressCard reader allows for laptop-style add-ons.) Apple's iMacs allow you to upgrade the RAM easily, but anything else involves a 21-screw ordeal. The compact Shuttle X50 (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/55884/review/x50_aio.html) also permits memory upgrades; that's noteworthy because every other all-in-one with a screen 19 inches or less--including the Dell--is a completely closed system."

Source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/168576/allinone_pcs_with_a_touch_of_style.html


I agree, my point in comparing the models, is the overheating issue. If other companies can get past it, why cant apple? Surely they have the resources to do this. I have worked on a lot of all-in-ones, and typically the hard drive is located next to a vent, near the top.

Reasonable thinking, they have the resources to not have to use this sensor, but still choose to use it, because they feel they could keep a revenue stream from break/fix.

I worked on a dell last week, not that model, but still an all-in-on, but swapped the HD because it failed, was pretty easy.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Id bet money, on the fact that at least 65% of the users do not realize they cant just replace their hard drive. Whether they care to or not, they should still have the option to replace it or upgrade it on their own. Thats the argument here.

I'd bet money 100% of them never want to replace any part of their computer themselves. If they need it replaced at some point they can simply take it to the Apple store. Why should they have to have that option? Why can't apple run their company the way they want? When I install Windows on a customers machine I lock down certain aspects they have no business messing with. If they don't like it there are plenty of other shops they can take their business to.

Knightsman
05-13-2011, 05:37 PM
I'd bet money 100% of them never want to replace any part of their computer themselves. If they need it replaced at some point they can simply take it to the Apple store. Why should they have to have that option? Why can't apple run their company the way they want? When I install Windows on a customers machine I lock down certain aspects they have no business messing with. If they don't like it there are plenty of other shops they can take their business to.


I don't agree with the 100%. By that are you saying guys like us shouldn't own macs? Before I starting building my own computers, I swapped everything I could to play, and learn. Why cant a 10 year old with a limited budget be able to buy a hard drive from tiger direct, and swap it himself?

Apple can run the company they way the want, but it needs to be ethical, and I don't feel like, if there are plenty of options for a hard drive, to restrict only to their custom hd.

I wont buy a car if they tell me I have to buy a battery, oil, gas from only them. Its the same thing in my opinion. I agree with having to buy from them a motherboard, just like an engine. But the external stuff, that can be swapped, like an intake, or battery, the end user should have the option. But even an engine can be replaced by a reputable place without the end user being restricted.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 05:38 PM
Um...download them on a working system , put them on a flash drive and install them to the new systems? Thats what I might do.

I find keeping a USB-Ethernet adapter on hand makes it easy for me. I slipstream in the drivers for the particular adapter on all my discs so I don't have to bother with a CD, plugin the adapter, download the drivers on the live system and install them, good to go.

But I'm not an end user. We're talking about it being difficult to find drivers for end users.

I can do the same thing with Linux with about the same level of difficulty. I'm a bit more experienced when it comes to Linux and understand typing...

./configure
make
make install

...to be the same difficulty as double clicking "setup.exe" and hitting next like a puppy humping a football (rapidly and without regard for what I'm hitting next for).

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 05:51 PM
I don't agree with the 100%. By that are you saying guys like us shouldn't own macs? Before I starting building my own computers, I swapped everything I could to play, and learn. Why cant a 10 year old with a limited budget be able to buy a hard drive from tiger direct, and swap it himself?

Apple can run the company they way the want, but it needs to be ethical, and I don't feel like, if there are plenty of options for a hard drive, to restrict only to their custom hd.

I wont buy a car if they tell me I have to buy a battery, oil, gas from only them. Its the same thing in my opinion. I agree with having to buy from them a motherboard, just like an engine. But the external stuff, that can be swapped, like an intake, or battery, the end user should have the option. But even an engine can be replaced by a reputable place without the end user being restricted.


I can assure you none of these people want to ever see, much less touch the internals of their computer. I know them personally. All they care about is will it run the programs they need to run and not get infected while doing it.

Again, its their company to run as they wish. If people don't like it they will tell them so with their $$$. The only people I hear swaking about it are the anti-Mac people.

Its not really the same, but I'll play along and just say if all you care about is the car getting you from point A to point B I don't think it would mean as much to you.


I can do the same thing with Linux with about the same level of difficulty. I'm a bit more experienced when it comes to Linux and understand typing...

I disagree. I had to first find out why the existing drivers did not work...google, next I had to hunt down drivers on forums...google , Then I had to figure out how to remove the old drivers, (not a simple process)...more google.., Then install the new drivers I had to make. To put it bluntly it was very much a pain in the ass and not even close to double clicking an exe.

anonymous Mac Tech
05-13-2011, 05:57 PM
I agree, my point in comparing the models, is the overheating issue. If other companies can get past it, why cant apple? Surely they have the resources to do this. I have worked on a lot of all-in-ones, and typically the hard drive is located next to a vent, near the top.

Every iMac since the G5 has had the HD right on top and next to a vent, so what's your point? The overheating issue is something that I have came up with in my experience of replacing literally hundreds of drives in these things over the years. This has nothing to do with any known issue that Apple acknowledges. Another thing I have noticed is many of these drives are being replaced under Applecare, within 3 years, that Apple is footing the bill for. How much profit is there in selling a machine with Applecare if it's highly likely Apple will be paying to replace the drive?

Reasonable thinking, they have the resources to not have to use this sensor, but still choose to use it, because they feel they could keep a revenue stream from break/fix.

Yeah, they are just using sensors to piss you off.:rolleyes: There is a fan that is dedicated to cooling the drive. The drive fan speed is controlled by the logic board using input from the sensor. Same with the optical drive and CPU. Each have their own dedicated fan with sensors that the logic board uses to control fan speed.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 06:16 PM
http://69.164.196.92/pictures/words.gif

Really?

I never knew Windows would magically have the .exe on your desktop ready to click without any searching, amazing!

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 07:50 PM
Really?

I never knew Windows would magically have the .exe on your desktop ready to click without any searching, amazing!

I never said it was magic. I said it was a lot easier than Linux. I think most people would agree. I see you do have the typical Linux fanboy attitude though.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 08:04 PM
http://69.164.196.92/pictures/words.gif

Since more people are experts at windows than linux I find that to be a true statement. But it doesn't matter because we're talking about end users and end users finding drivers on a system that has no network driver and no driver disk is going to be virtually impossible no matter what.

When talking about end users you change the discussion to be about technicians and miss the point (See post #29 (http://www.technibble.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214641&postcount=29)).

You are missing the point of what I wrote above, you write out the steps you (admittedly, not an expert with Linux), took to get those drivers for linux but when talking about the windows experience (which you are more of an expert in) your steps are

1.) click .exe (assumed to be already on desktop (magically? (THREE LEVELS OF PARANTHETIC YUMMINESS)))
2.) ??? (probably clicking next like a puppy humping a football)
3.) Profit! (Or atleast breaking even)

Essentially, I disregard you in most of these conversations now because you say something, but when someone challenges you, you change the scope of the conversation so it no longer matters, where you go from there depends on how emotionally invested in the topic you are. This is pretty much the standard fair for zealots of any operating system.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Since more people are experts at windows than linux I find that to be a true statement. But it doesn't matter because we're talking about end users and end users finding drivers on a system that has no network driver and no driver disk is going to be virtually impossible no matter what.

When talking about end users you change the discussion to be about technicians and miss the point (See post #29 (http://www.technibble.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214641&postcount=29)).

You are missing the point of what I wrote above, you write out the steps you (admittedly, not an expert with Linux), took to get those drivers for linux but when talking about the windows experience (which you are more of an expert in) your steps are

1.) click .exe (assumed to be already on desktop (magically? (THREE LEVELS OF PARANTHETIC YUMMINESS)))
2.) ??? (probably clicking next like a puppy humping a football)
3.) Profit! (Or atleast breaking even)

Essentially, I disregard you in most of these conversations now because you say something, but when someone challenges you, you change the scope of the conversation so it no longer matters, where you go from there depends on how emotionally invested in the topic you are. This is pretty much the standard fair for zealots of any operating system.


Let me break it down so even you can understand. End user has a Dell desktop system with no sound driver running Windows. He does a search for Dell drivers and is directed to the Dell drivers and downloads page. Enters the model number and bang MAGIC the driver is downloaded and with a double click installed. Same user tries this on a fresh install of Linux. Good luck searching forums. You know I'm right but keep arguing. I think this means you have more of an interest in trying to make me look bad than proving anything.

By the way your attitude is one thing that turns users off from Linux. You are doing the Linux community no favors with the condescending remarks.


You can disregard what ever you like, wont hurt my feelings a bit. You made a statements about the ease of installing Linux drivers and I disagree. If you don't like what I post no one is making you read them. You want to talk about going off topic? How about did this go from a Mac hard drive discussion to a personal attack on me?

As for me being a zealot, I like Windows 7 and OS X just fine. I'm a realist when it comes to end users and I don't live in a closed little world where I'm the smartest one on the planet. :rolleyes:

All you sarcasm means nothing. You can't disprove anything I said and this is simply a cop out, nothing more nothing less.



1.) click .exe (assumed to be already on desktop (magically? (THREE LEVELS OF PARANTHETIC YUMMINESS)))
2.) ??? (probably clicking next like a puppy humping a football)
3.) Profit! (Or atleast breaking even)

1. Not magic, its called the internet ( might wanna look into it )
2. Nope twice is plenty.
3. Yep, profit.


I'm a bit more experienced when it comes to Linux and understand typing

Yes but do you understand how to discuss the topic without sounding like an arrogant prick?

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 08:45 PM
Let me break it down
All you sarcasm means nothing. You can't disprove anything I said and this is simply a cop out, nothing more nothing less.

Ever wonder why I disregard your opinions?

Let's go back a bit in time shall we? Or as you said, break it down.

You go on about how you (as a linux dabbler (end user)) had trouble installing a driver. You use this anecdote to make the claim that since you had trouble installing a driver...

When set up properly it works fine but we are far from the day the typical end user can set up a Linux box with no problems.

I agree and also bring in my own anecdote about a standard retail windows 7 disk did not have OEM support in that the drivers used by the box were not packaged in the disk I was using. Upon booting the computer I find it is missing Network drivers. My point is: What would an end user do in this situation? Wouldn't it be a problem? So I guess windows is far from the day the typical end user can setup a Windows box with no problems.

The point is quite plain and simple, setting up an OS with no support the only one that does well is Mac OS (since the hardware is built for the OS of course).

Then you counter my comment about end users with a comment about how YOU (not an end user, with regards to windows) would fix the problem.

Um...download them on a working system , put them on a flash drive and install them to the new systems? Thats what I might do.

Wait, we're not talking about you or me, we're talking about end users. When I point out we're talking about end users instead of admitting "well maybe he has a point" you ignore it. Which only further shows your bias.

I'm not Richard Stalman, what I am is a man who doesn't care for your style of debate (ignore, move goal posts, rebut strawmen). If you can't look back at the conversation and see one simple point, it's not me who is the zealot here.

I've made multiple attempts now to bring you back to the original point. You have shown multiple times that you are completely ignorant of the point and the surrounding facts, thus you are being disregarded. Call it a cop out, call it what you wish. I don't negotiate with terrorists and I don't debate irrational men.

As for your comment about being an arrogant prick, I tried being nice, when you don't respond with that but ignore the claims or shift the ground rules to something you prefer, I'm not going to be nice about it. I'm going to point out your flaw in thinking and I'm going to put it on display so you either take a look at it and go "oops, my bad" or you just show your ass some more like you've been doing.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 09:03 PM
Wait, we're not talking about you or me, we're talking about end users. When I point out we're talking about end users instead of admitting "well maybe he has a point" you ignore it. Which only further shows your bias.

I'm not Richard Stalman, what I am is a man who doesn't care for your style of debate (ignore, move goal posts, rebut strawmen). If you can't look back at the conversation and see one simple point, it's not me who is the zealot here.

I've made multiple attempts now to bring you back to the original point. You have shown multiple times that you are completely ignorant of the point and the surrounding facts, thus you are being disregarded. Call it a cop out, call it what you wish. I don't negotiate with terrorists and I don't debate irrational men.

As for your comment about being an arrogant prick, I tried being nice, when you don't respond with that but ignore the claims or shift the ground rules to something you prefer, I'm not going to be nice about it. I'm going to point out your flaw in thinking and I'm going to put it on display so you either take a look at it and go "oops, my bad" or you just show your ass some more like you've been doing


Exactly, and speaking more as an end user of Linux I found it hard to install the drivers. As for Windows users from what I have seen if they took it upon themselves to install the drivers they would most likely start by getting on a working machine and searching for them.

This has little to do with the thread topic.


I don't care for your attitude.


This has little to do with the thread topic.


I never called you an arrogant prick. I said: Do you understand how to discuss the topic without sounding like an arrogant prick?



This has little to do with the thread topic.


I think the thread was about Imac hard drives, not how much you dislike me. ;)

Do you wish to actually add anything useful or just try to prove your incredible debating skills?.....lol

Lets not forget you started this with these two comments:

I'm a bit more experienced when it comes to Linux and understand typing...

I never knew Windows would magically have the .exe on your desktop ready to click without any searching, amazing!

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 09:11 PM
Exactly, and speaking more as an end user of Linux I found it hard to install the drivers. As for Windows users from what I have seen if they took it upon themselves to install the drivers they would most likely start by getting on a working machine and searching for them.

Fair enough, but is that not a "problem" with the setup, which was your initial standard. "if there are problems with setup, it's not ready for end users" Or did I misread this?...

I dabble in Linux. So no, I don't use it often. The last time I installed Linux It was Mint on a netbook and it took me about 45 mins and a terminal hack to get the wireless to function. This was maybe 2 months ago. When set up properly it works fine but we are far from the day the typical end user can set up a Linux box with no problems.

I think the thread was about Imac hard drives, not how much you dislike me. ;)

I figured if you're talking about your anecdotes about linux drivers by page 2 me countering it on page 3 is fine. From there well, you see where it is.

gunslinger
05-13-2011, 09:15 PM
Fair enough, but is that not a "problem" with the setup, which was your initial standard. "if there are problems with setup, it's not ready for end users" Or did I misread this?...

Again we are going way off thread topic but to answer. I think MOST end users would find it far easier to find and install drivers in Windows than Linux.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 09:16 PM
I think the thread was about Imac hard drives, not how much you dislike me. ;)

Lets not forget you started this with these two comments:

No, I started exactly as I stated at the very top of this page.

You went off on a further tangent about linux drivers being harder to install for you (a linux novice) than in windows (which for your sake we'll say expert). Which is pointless but I found it funny you pain stakingly listed each step for linux but when listing the steps for windows you started out already having the .exe available (assuming you giving the same care to your windows install in listing out each step you performed). I made a side comment about it and you've latched onto it ever since.

Do you wish to actually add anything useful or just try to prove your incredible debating skills?.....lol


Did you actually laugh out loud or are you using it as punctuation? I've made my point, your earlier anecdote about linux is worthless. QED.

Ccomp5950
05-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Again we are going way off thread topic but to answer. I think MOST end users would find it far easier to find and install drivers in Windows than Linux.

Not the point, and just a further tangent. I find it humourous you are the one harping on going off topic when it's you who originally made the tangent.

The point: If "no problems" is the standard by which you claim an OS must be setup with by end users before it is ready for end users to use, than no OS meets this requirement.

allchannels99
07-12-2011, 04:52 PM
This sucks for us Mac Techs

OldSchoolPC
07-12-2011, 06:32 PM
Now, why can't we all just get along? ;)