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smlie4
10-20-2010, 08:06 AM
Okay here is the scenario.

Went out to job and diagnose Windows XP not getting past the black Windows XP loader screen the loader bar. Tried to boot in safe mode with no success. I tested the hard drive with Seagate diagnostics and found drive dying.

I pulled drive out of computer and took it home and cloned onto new drive with HD Clone which notified me some errors coping all data. I then ran CHKDSK on new drive in my workshop computer after 3 hours the computer booted up on my computer I ran windows important updates and took drive back to customers house.

After installing drive in customers computer I got BSOD ***STOP: 0x0000007e (0xc0000005,0xcf75e7750,0xf78a242c,0xf78a2128) straight after Windows XP Loader screen (the one before the logon screen).

I tried safe boot mode and it loaded ok, so I used system restore to go back before my updates and restarted still BSOD.

I took customers computer back home and tried drive in my computer and it started with no problems.

I used AUTORUNS and stage by stage unchecked items and restarted each time until I have unchecked everything and still BSOD!

I went into the device manager and uninstalled VIDEO/CHIP/MOUSE/KEYBOARD/HDD/SOUND drivers and still getting BSOD after Windows loader screen.

Decided to call it quits and I was going to NUKE and PAVE, as it is OEM version I didn't think I could do a repair install but when I put in my OEM XP home installation disk and went to install there was the repair installation "R" available so I did a repair installation. This still failed to fix the BSOD.

I am guessing when I used system restore it removed all the windows updates I updated so that rules out that and only leaves driver problem and the system loads fine on my computer and not the customers computer which the drive was cloned from makes me it would be a driver associated with my MOBO/VIDEO/SOUND.

Customers needs computer back so I am just going to NUKE and PAVE, but I open for comments on other things I could have done for future reference.

smlie4
10-20-2010, 08:16 AM
I just had a thought.. The hard drive was originally hanging at the same place it is now BSOD'ing. Now the hard drive has been replaced I am guessing this area is damaged still (because I cloned the drive). As it works on my computer but not customer, this means it is a driver associated with customers computer?

*Also I swapped RAM across from working computer al ot earlier in the process and did not make difference.

iptech
10-20-2010, 10:11 AM
The problem is caused by filesystem damage, this may be caused by a failing hard drive, but can also be caused by improper shutdown, virus activity or fragmentation.

Firstly you need to decide of was a hardware fault on the old drive causing the problem, if that tests OK then you need to diagnose the bootup issues on a known good drive. If you randomly stab at software fixes you're asking for trouble and it will take you forever to fix the problem especially if you're working on a failing hard drive.

As the computer boots in Safe Mode I would be looking at a driver issue, this could well be a rootkit infection rather than a genuine device driver issue.

smlie4
10-20-2010, 10:21 AM
Firstly you need to decide of was a hardware fault on the old drive causing the problem.


Seagate hard drive diagnostics said the old drive had several errors and should be replaced. I have not tested the new drive, but the old drive would not boot in safe mode whereas the new drive will happily boot in safe mode.

B Trevathan
10-20-2010, 10:44 AM
As it works on my computer but not customer, this means it is a driver associated with customers computer?

We know windows loads only minimal generic drivers in safe mode and the new drive that you put in the customers computer loaded windows ok in safe mode but would not load windows in normal mode and this was after you ran windows updates on the drive while it was in a different computer, yes I think your right it does sounds like it could be a driver problem.


I wonder if rolling back to a previously installed driver or even uninstalling the updates would help.


Did you think any of the information on this page will help:How to troubleshoot a Stop 0x0000007E error in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/330182

smlie4
10-20-2010, 11:17 AM
I wonder if rolling back to a previously installed driver or even uninstalling the updates would help.

I did originally use System Restore to go back to a time before.. I got my grubby little mits on the computer. I would have thought this would include drivers.

If not I also though I would have covered this off when I uninstalled all the common drivers video/sound etc so windows would load as though it does on a fresh install before you put the motherboard cd in with all the drivers.

I have never really been conscious of it, but now I think of it drivers only ever come under the optional updates and never under important updates and I always recommend to my customers to stay clear of optional updates as they included things like graphics driver updates which sometimes lead to BSOD issues and can be more trouble than they are worth.



Did you think any of the information on this page will help:How to troubleshoot a Stop 0x0000007E error in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/330182


I did look at this page a couple of hours ago.

I am right in thinking Windows Fixit does not work in safe mode?

I never thought of touching BIOS like it mentions as I would have thought this would be okay.

I used AUTORUNS to disable every service, 3rd party drivers & any box that I could untick in AUTORUNS I unticked it.

I probably would love to read a flow chart on what windows loads through the stages of startup, I am pretty sure at this stage of loading no 3rd party programs would be loaded.

I must mention when I did repair install it won't safe start now, as windows wants to finish the repair installation but will not allow it in safe start and because I can not start in normal mode I have check mated myself.

I would still like to keep the discussion going though as I am learning things.

TLE
10-20-2010, 11:30 AM
I pulled drive out of computer and took it home and cloned onto new drive with HD Clone which notified me some errors coping all data. I then ran CHKDSK on new drive in my workshop computer after 3 hours the computer booted up on my computer I ran windows important updates and took drive back to customers house.

Hmm, so you cloned the drive and installed it, and booted from it on your own PC before trying it in your customers PC, as well as installing updates. To be honest I am suprsied it didn't BSOD on your system as Windows installations are tied to the hardware they are installed on, unless the installation has had sysprep run against it.

I suspect when it booted it installed additional drivers for the new hardware config such as Chipset, Graphics, LAN etc. etc. rendering it incompatable with your customers systems

gazza
10-20-2010, 11:41 AM
Why would you clone a failing drive to new drive? The failing drive has a damaged file system so cloning it to a new drive is only going to carry over the damaged file system. Backup the clients data from the failing drive and do a clean install on the new drive and restore their data.

smlie4
10-20-2010, 11:57 AM
To be honest I am suprsied it didn't BSOD on your system as Windows installations are tied to the hardware they are installed on, unless the installastion has had sysprep run against it.

I was surprised to when it worked on my computer (give me an inch and I will take a 6 miles) and I realize doing Windows updates on my computer was rookie error I won't make again. Even more surprising the customers computer is AMD and mine Intel.

My thought was at the time that I didn't want to sit at customers house for another hour whilst windows updated its self as I had stuff to do at home.

I suspect when it booted it installed additional drivers for the new hardware config such as Chipset, Graphics, LAN etc. etc. rendering it incompatable with your customers systems

I did get the usual XP new hardware has been detected wizard popup, but I just cancelled them.

I did uninstall the Processor driver which had no effect.

There was over 20 drivers under the System devices, with names like ACPI fixed feature button, direct memory access controller, Microcode Update Device. I am guessing these are all related to the MOBO?

smlie4
10-20-2010, 12:06 PM
Why would you clone a failing drive to new drive? The failing drive has a damaged file system so cloning it to a new drive is only going to carry over the damaged file system. Backup the clients data from the failing drive and do a clean install on the new drive and restore their data.

Computer was from accountant and had a few specialist programs setup. The idea was to clone and then run CHKDSK to repair errors.

This did work to some extent because the drive was happily booting on my computer, it was just when it came to using drive in computer the drive was cloned from.

TLE
10-20-2010, 12:18 PM
There was over 20 drivers under the System devices, with names like ACPI fixed feature button, direct memory access controller, Microcode Update Device. I am guessing these are all related to the MOBO?

I have to say Smile4, that statements such as this worry me, as it sounds like you have very little experience other than fixing friends and family's PC's. Maybe you should avoid working for business's where data is crucial as is downtime.

smlie4
10-20-2010, 12:44 PM
I have to say Smile4, that statements such as this worry me, as it sounds like you have very little experience other than fixing friends and family's PC's. Maybe you should avoid working for business's where data is crucial as is downtime.

This is not the main computer. The business is small business, I will not take on larger business's as yes they would be out of my league. The reason small business employ small players like me is because my rates are lower than techs who have high extensive knowledge.

I acknowledge your reply, but don't feel comments like this really give confidence to other up an coming techs.

I would prefer if you provided support. Cheers

Xander
10-20-2010, 04:02 PM
I acknowledge your reply, but don't feel comments like this really give confidence to other up an coming techs. You might not like TLE's analysis of the situation, smlie, but that doesn't make him wrong. We're not paid to be nurturing mentors here; we're here voluntarily to offer help to fellow technicians... When a dog is barking up the wrong tree, you don't pat it on the head and tell it, 'Good job', do you?
The business is small business, I will not take on larger business's as yes they would be out of my league. The reason small business employ small players like me is because my rates are lower than techs who have high extensive knowledge.If you're guessing that devices are connected to the motherboard, it doesn't matter if the computer belongs to a business or residential, it sounds like it's already out of your league. Small businesses pay 'the little guy' not because they have less expertise but because they charge less (typically because they have less expertise). I can find a CraigsLister who will claim all the expertise in the world but that still doesn't make him worth the paltry $20/hr he'll charge.

smlie4
10-20-2010, 05:20 PM
You might not like TLE's analysis of the situation, smlie, but that doesn't make him wrong. We're not paid to be nurturing mentors here; we're here voluntarily to offer help to fellow technicians... When a dog is barking up the wrong tree, you don't pat it on the head and tell it, 'Good job', do you?
If you're guessing that devices are connected to the motherboard, it doesn't matter if the computer belongs to a business or residential, it sounds like it's already out of your league. Small businesses pay 'the little guy' not because they have less expertise but because they charge less (typically because they have less expertise). I can find a CraigsLister who will claim all the expertise in the world but that still doesn't make him worth the paltry $20/hr he'll charge.

I am sorry for my comment about the MOBO drivers, I have been pretty fatigued today from head cold and not been able to clearly think over everything I am saying.

MobileTechie
10-20-2010, 05:41 PM
Why would you clone a failing drive to new drive? The failing drive has a damaged file system so cloning it to a new drive is only going to carry over the damaged file system. Backup the clients data from the failing drive and do a clean install on the new drive and restore their data.

I do this all the time and 90% of the time there are no problems at all. Why do it? Because the customer gets their machine back as it was but now working perfectly.

ATTech
10-20-2010, 05:43 PM
I just want to clarify this for everyone out there...

When you remove a drive from one system and place it in another, as most of you know, if may or may not boot. There are two major factors that contribute to a system not booting in a separate PC: The absence of the proper mass storage drivers, and the hall.dll version.

The former case should be easy to understand; have you ever tried installing an operating system, only to be told that it does not see a hard drive? That's because the windows disc you are using doesn't contain the proper drivers to communicate with the hard drive's controller. If you move a hard drive to another computer, the hard drive needs to contain the drivers that tell the operating system how to communicate through the controller.

The latter case, however, may not seem so obvious. This actually, often gets mistaken for being a mismatched chipset issue. The fact is that while the chipset does dictate which HAL is used, there are only a handful of HAL version while there are substantially more chipsets. Through the pigeon hole principle, we can deduce that some chipsets use the same HAL. So the question is what is the HAL? To put it simply, the HAL helps the operating system communicate with the motherboard and it's features. So what controls what HAL.dll version is used? The presence/lack of APIC & ACPI, as well as Uni vs. Multi processor/processor cores. Now, there is some backwards compatibility with some HALs, but typically if the proper mass storage drivers are present, and the same HAL is used, the system will typically boot on the different hardware.

As someone previously mentioned, when a computer is sysprep'd it will work as well. That's because a sysprep'd hard drive or image will choose and install the proper mass storage drivers, as well as (if set-up properly) install the correct HAL. A warning with that though, the hard drive or image needs to either contain the mass storage drivers, or the sysprep needs to point the computer to where the mass storage drivers can be found.

Keep in mind, this is only in regards to the OPs situation where he was able to boot it from his machine. The subsequent errors he's seeing is likely caused by drivers.

MobileTechie
10-20-2010, 05:54 PM
What you've done by booting that installation and and updating it on another machine is altered the drivers to match your machine and not the client's machine. You're lucky it even boots in safe mode. That was not a good move.

You could try putting it back in your machine and replacing all the machine specific drivers (mobo, disk controller etc) to generic MS ones to make the installation more system agnostic, uninstall all the 3rd party drivers and then trying it back in the client machine.

Or you could do the drive cloning from scratch and start again.

This is assuming the problem is caused by the above and not just file system damage.

TLE
10-20-2010, 07:25 PM
I do this all the time and 90% of the time there are no problems at all. Why do it? Because the customer gets their machine back as it was but now working perfectly.

+1

........filler

iptech
10-20-2010, 08:00 PM
The reason small business employ small players like me is because my rates are lower than techs who have high extensive knowledge.

I acknowledge your reply, but don't feel comments like this really give confidence to other up an coming techs.

I would prefer if you provided support. Cheers
That's great, you undercut your peers to get the work and then you expect them to give you the answers for free. :(

It sounds like the cheap option will not work out so cheap for your customer.

iptech
10-20-2010, 08:07 PM
I do this all the time and 90% of the time there are no problems at all. Why do it? Because the customer gets their machine back as it was but now working perfectly.
Absolutely, nothing wrong with trying this, if you clone a drive in its early stages of failure there's every chance of success. Most often filesystem damage from platter wear will occur where the drive gets most use i.e. the area where the pagefile sits. I always delete this and hibefil.sys from cloned drives.

ZenTree
10-20-2010, 08:17 PM
Ignoring the discussions about level of expertise and the correct procedure for what you should have / could have done:

System boots in safe mode, won't in normal.
Odds are drivers - already established.

Have you analysed your crash dumps?

Bluescreenview is worth a look for this, see which drivers are in memory when it crashes. Is it the same drivers each time etc, what are they linked to. Those questions should get you pointed in the right direction.

Also I'm assuming you cloned directly to the new drive. If not and you have a backup image then just go back to that and start again. Or reclone the old hard drive if it's still standing (to a THIRD hard drive in case goes completely wrong) and then see if it loads up in the customer's pc after fixing corruption. If it does, linked to your updates, if doesn't then wasn't linked.

Time consuming yes but if it saves you reinstalling certain annoying and time consuming programs, worth a go.


The system loads in safe mode. You should be able to get it loading in normal mode on the vast majority of repairs, in my experience.

gazza
10-21-2010, 03:08 AM
I do this all the time and 90% of the time there are no problems at all. Why do it? Because the customer gets their machine back as it was but now working perfectly.

Okay, just because you do it like that doesn't make it right! I totally understand the benefits of cloning customers drives, but not from failing drives that damaged files on it, as per the OP. In this situation I always back up the customers data and do clean install of the OS on a new drive and any programs they have licenses for, this will guarantee that they get there machine back working perfectly!

PcTek9
10-21-2010, 04:02 AM
ok.

Yah this method works sometimes, but not always.

You could have winded up wasting all this time for nothing.

In the future if you have file system damage, backup the customers DATA

then nuke and pave on a new drive if there is drive damage, or on the same drive if it's just file damage (non hardware related).

Lettuce teach you stuff that works, every time, so you don't lose time.

Your time is valuable. { I on the other hand, throw away some things, and put capacitors in power supplies, lcd's and the like b/c i enjoy it. I'm the decider! :) }

and further ... the expectation that the drivers would be there, was an incorrect assumption, causing you a greater loss of YOUR time.

We learn from this, that once again, the N&P, with customer data restoration might have been the quickest path to enlightenment.

Further, and finally, something you may not think of... What if:

What if:

The best drivers for the system are not loaded now, but 'workable' slower drivers are?

What if some of the old drivers on the system that should not be there b/c they only work with YOUR computer and not the CUSTOMERS get utilized in the future, or what if some strange and mysterious DLL is still alive in the cavernous gargantuanism of Microsoft Windows that belongs to something related to your system and not their system and it one day conflicts with some software they install and the whole system destabilizes itself into a random state of existentialistic quantum existence???

Anything is possible... If this were not so, I would not have told you so.

I admire your spirit, and I think you will be an awesome technician.
Personally, I quite like you. :)

stevenamills
10-21-2010, 10:18 PM
ok.

Lettuce teach you stuff that works, every time, so you don't lose time.



Speech to text, I assume.....

Sorry, man, couldn't resist!

JAG Computers
10-22-2010, 01:10 AM
Okay, just because you do it like that doesn't make it right! I totally understand the benefits of cloning customers drives, but not from failing drives that damaged files on it, as per the OP. In this situation I always back up the customers data and do clean install of the OS on a new drive and any programs they have licenses for, this will guarantee that they get there machine back working perfectly!

Gazza, you seem to berate others for the solution they provide merely on the basis that you do not like it. It is ok that you state what you do in a situation like this but to berate others for it is unacceptable.

You are not making any friends when you act like this.

smlie4: you are doing fine. Keep looking and you will find the answer.

NeutronTech
10-22-2010, 01:41 AM
Okay, just because you do it like that doesn't make it right! I totally understand the benefits of cloning customers drives, but not from failing drives that damaged files on it, as per the OP. In this situation I always back up the customers data and do clean install of the OS on a new drive and any programs they have licenses for, this will guarantee that they get there machine back working perfectly!

Just because you use your method doesn't make it right either. Quite frankly, with most things in computer repair, there is no right or wrong method, as long as the results are what was desired. Of course, you can waste time, and some methods take longer than others, but it doesn't make one anymore wrong than the other.

Besides, his customer has proprietary software and may or may not have had the means to reinstall it. When dealing with business customers, sometimes you have to go the long path to complete the job and exceed expectations. Which, I guess would make it the right choice then; wouldn't it?

stevenamills
10-22-2010, 04:17 PM
smlie4: you are doing fine. Keep looking and you will find the answer.

Yes you are. Trying to resolve this for your client is the right thing.

Try to ignore the self-agrandizing noise here - difficult, but necessary for your sanity.

MobileTechie
10-22-2010, 04:51 PM
Okay, just because you do it like that doesn't make it right! I totally understand the benefits of cloning customers drives, but not from failing drives that damaged files on it, as per the OP. In this situation I always back up the customers data and do clean install of the OS on a new drive and any programs they have licenses for, this will guarantee that they get there machine back working perfectly!

No, what makes it right is the simple fact that it works.

It does of course depend on what you mean by a "failing drive". What I mean is when there are problems caused by disk errors which are caused by bad sectors. The method I use both secures the data in case of further damage and attempts to repair/remap the bad sectors before the second image is taken. Even some bad sectors remain there is still a very good chance they are not holding data from system-critical files. You might wish to try it before you knock it because it produces a result that the local big box store cannot replicate - they're too busy nuking and paving anything that comes across their desk.

Re: the OP's situation, we don't know if it has damaged files or not or just a damaged and correctable file system or the wrong drivers caused by his actions.

joydivision
10-22-2010, 05:10 PM
I would just uninstall all the drivers and see what happens. Most obvious thing is you have coppied over damaged drivers but with the way rootkits are these days who knows. The faulty drive may have steered you to a wrong diagnoses.

I realise the drive had to be replaced regardless but it could well be a rookit causing the BSOD rather than the old failing drive. Thats the problem with this job :mad::(

You have my sympathy as I been having a lot of this sort of thing lately.

brokenmachine
11-01-2010, 07:21 AM
Hi,

It sounds to me like the problem was a failing hard drive, which you then successfully cloned to the new hard drive. Then you booted the drive up in your tech system... which sounds to me like the problem.

7E BSOD's are caused by drivers. By booting up the drive into Windows with it connected to your system and running windows update, it would've updated the hard drive controller driver in the process (Either through windows update, or when the windows installation detected the new hardware).

When you connected the drive to the clients system, windows no longer had the right driver for their hard drive controller and kicked up a BSOD.

In the future, you can do 1 of 3 things.

1) Don't boot up the drive on your system after the clone.

2) If you do decide to boot up the drive, go to the device manager, go to controllers, and manually update the hard drive controller driver to the generic "standard dual channel pci ide controller" driver before you shut down the pc for the last time.

3) If you can still boot to safe mode on the clients pc (like you said you could) do step 2 on their machine then reboot.

The fact that you took the drive home again and it continued to boot perfectly indicates that this is exactly the problem you occurred and next time you have the right fix for it, which doesn't involve a "Nuke and Pave" :D

If you want to get really tricky though you can then figure out the registry entries and all the files you need to reset the controller driver remotely. Then you can inject them into the registry using runscanner and bartpe's regedit :) That's how I do it.

Cheers,
Brokenmachine

smlie4
11-01-2010, 08:52 AM
Wow some heat in this thread, diet coke has got us all on edge.. lol

There have been some great responses and some clear genius's out there, way beyond my brain knowledge.

I can't believe I oversighted re-cloning the old drive, so simple! Not saying this would have resolved the issue, but it does seems like a logical step early in the process.

For anyone interested in how the job turned out:
When I first diagnosed a faulty hard drive I talked the customer through the various outcomes.

Firstly and primarily I would do my best to clone their drive so they would not suffer any interruption, but as the drive has failed areas it may not be possible and I would have re-install Windows again which would mean all their software would have to installed including any personal settings they had in those programs.

In the end the customer was informed the clone was unsuccessful which they were okay with. I took the machine back and spent 4 hours setting up the computer with the clients software and getting it back into network and a couple of calls to accounting software company. Customer happy wants me back in a couple of months to setup new laptop and secretary also asked for two business cards.

Knightsman
12-08-2010, 03:37 AM
Honestly, if you clone a drive, and are still worried, uninstall SP3 if it has it, and SP2. Reinstall, run SFC, and you should be fine. Ive never had a problem.

Styxbound
12-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Several days ago my Dell precision 380 hung up at the loading screen at first boot in the morning; would blue-screen in safe mode. Did chkdsk /r from the recovery console; problem resolved. Later hard drive tests and virus scans found nothing.

I might mention in passing I very rarely have blue-screens when I don't know immediately what the problem is. It's almost always something "iffy" I've done like using a hard drive from another machine.