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gunslinger
11-14-2007, 09:34 PM
Enough is enough, I had to reinstall again last week. I lost some music and data but not a lot because I back up to an external drive weekly. since early February when I built my new desktop system and installed Vista ultimate I have reinstalled maybe 20 times.:mad: Why? because almost every program I run kills vista. I thought that it was because I was running the 64 bit version so I switched to 32 bit. It was a little more stable but not by much. Last week it crashed on me again. Feb up, I installed XP Pro. I will not go back to vista until I here some feed back on SP1 later this year. Maybe not even then.
My case is not unique, in fact these days a large part of my business is people wanting me to remove Vista and install xp on their new systems.
I'm getting a laptop in January and have been doing some shopping around and a Macbook running OS X is looking realy good these days. With the specs I wanted in a laptop It was looking like Dell, but after a quick call I found out they did not provide xp drivers for the model I wanted. The specs were 2 ghz core 2 , 2 gigs of RAM and a 120 gig hard drive. price? about $1,400. A quick look at apples site and I found a Macbook with a 2.2 ghz core 2 , and a 120 gig hard drive. Here is where it gets intresting. I can order the mac with 1 gig of RAM with my student discount for $1,199 then go to newegg and get 4 gigs of mac RAM for $179. With the dell I would be stuck with vista unless I run xp in a virtual machine. With the Macbook I can use bootcamp to run OS X , vista or xp. Yup, I may be turnning into a fanboy soon.:D I have never owned a Mac but pretty much anything beats Vista at this point.

JohnR
11-14-2007, 11:26 PM
I've found that Vista is not well-liked at all, no. I've taken to recommending that anyone looking at Vista spend the extra cash to get Business or Ultimate so they'll have downgrade rights to XP Pro if they decide they don't like it after the first few months.

On the laptop side: I'm not a big fan of Dell's machines. Their support is second-to-none in terms of availability, and their next-day onsite tech support is good, while the warranty lasts. Their website is great for finding drivers and machine specs, and the internals and cases are really easy to open and work with, even the laptops.

Those are the upsides, and they're pretty nice upsides. The downsides: They, like Macs, are very overpriced as you approach the higher-end models. When (not if) the hardware fails, you've either got the onsite warranty (good) or you're looking at weeks to get a part shipped, and it's about 50% of the time the wrong part, in my experience.

For cheaper laptops, Acer and Asus make good machines, that are just as reliable as the Apples and Dells I've worked with. For truly reliable machines, Lenovo and Fujitsu are unbeatable. I personally swear by Fujistu's Lifebook series - I use a s7110 for my own work. They're about as expensive as the IBM machines, and still cheaper than Dells and Macs.

Macs? They work just fine, for what they are. I don't recommend them for office use due to then endless small compatibility problems, but for personal use or in the hands of people who like working with BSD to work around issues, they're acceptable.

greggh
11-15-2007, 12:06 AM
Acer is definitely making some great laptops. I've sold on average about 4 a month and everyone has liked them so far.

gunslinger
11-15-2007, 03:30 AM
I'm not an Acer fan at all, their quality has come up some but its still not up to some of the other names.I ordered a replacement drive for a customers laptop from them, price was $230, thats a outrage for a two year old system. As far as the price of the Mac, Its about the same as the Dell with the same specs,and i'm not going to be stuck with Vista. My only real problem with Dell is that they outsource tech support. Not a fan of taking jobs away from my country.

JohnR
11-15-2007, 03:44 AM
As a citizen of the country to whom they outsource most of their North American second-level and hardware support, I don't actually have much of a problem with that, but I understand your hesitance.

Rabid_frog
11-15-2007, 09:13 AM
I've even heard vista being called "windows ME/2007". I cant stand it either, downgraded within a week from first using it. :)

dipper
11-15-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm not an Acer fan at all, their quality has come up some but its still not up to some of the other names.

If you think Acer's quality is not up to scratch check out:
http://www.crn.com/hardware/202401938

Simply put CRN put notebooks through a "Toughest Notebook Challenege". Only 4 manufacturers were willing to provides laptops to test - Panasonic, Dell, Toshiba and Acer.

Only 2 laptops survived being knocked off a table, poured soda on, dropped on the floor and dropped down the stairs - Panasonic and Acer!

Considering the Panasonic was a Toughbook (ie specifically designed to withstand this type of treatment) the Acer did a hell of a good job to survive the tests.

thecoldone06
11-15-2007, 01:18 PM
I'm not sure about the home tech support but as far as business Dell tech support they are all in Texas. Anytime I've had to call for a workstation or server, they have always been in Austin. It's nice being able to understand the person on the other end.

greggh
11-15-2007, 03:03 PM
Dipper: I read that too. Like I said above, I have been really happy with them. One of our techs is delivering another one today. The only problem with the Acer laptops right now is that they all come with Vista. We make sure to get the OS upgrade so we can then use the XP rights and install XP. You have to check out the model you are looking at on Acers website first though, make sure drivers for that model exist for XP on their download site. Some models dont have XP drivers. The 5570 has XP drivers, the 5570Z does not.

dipper
11-16-2007, 06:18 AM
You have to check out the model you are looking at on Acers website first though, make sure drivers for that model exist for XP on their download site. Some models dont have XP drivers. The 5570 has XP drivers, the 5570Z does not.

Here in Australia you can still get Acer's with XP.

FYI A client once purchased a HP laptop elsewhere and then wanted in to run POS software. The POS software would only run on XP. HP had no XP drivers and stated it would not run on XP.

With help from http://www.driveragent.com and a bit of playing around we had XP Pro all running apart from the sound card. Since the client was a business they didn';t want sound anyway!

So depending upon the laptop and with a bit of stuffing around it is possible.

greggh
11-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Dipper, very true. Sometimes the manufacture (like broadcom or realtek) have made reference drivers available too. I have noticed with acer though that it is tough to find xp drivers for some of their vista only laptops.

gunslinger
11-16-2007, 09:05 PM
What its comming down to is that everyone is going to be forced into running Vista at some point. There will always be a few holdouts like us computer tech folks who see just how bad Vista is, but even we can only hold out so long. Thats my main reason for going over to the Mac for a laptop. Do I think Mac hardware is better? No. Do I buy into the hype? No. Do I think OS X is better than Vista? You bet your ass it is. No comparison. A computer is only as good as the OS thats run on it and this time microsoft really dropped the ball.

JohnR
11-16-2007, 10:11 PM
What its comming down to is that everyone is going to be forced into running Vista at some point.

Really?

How many Windows ME users do *you* know?

Just like ME, Vista will be replaced by a non-crappy OS before businesses migrate, and, if we're lucky, this new OS will be called Vista Service Pack 2 and, unlike ME, all the people scammed into buying Vista won't have to pay for a working OS.

greggh
11-17-2007, 12:31 AM
JohnR is definately right. ME was a joke, I would go as far as to say a travesty. It was disgusting. But it didnt last long, 2000 was out pretty quick and a lot of people moved to that.

I have been testing every beta of sp1 for vista and so far it is going ok. It is still vista and most of my main gripes are still there, BUT most of the bugs that cause crashes and whatnot that really piss me off are fixed. Hopefully by SP2 it will actually be a usable system. XP was decent pre-sp1, but it wasnt a great/stable OS until SP2. Some people will argue that point, but pre-sp2 it had more problems than any other windows OS before it. Sort of like Vista is having now.

I still only use windows for work at this point. Linux has and will be my main server and desktop operating system.

focuz
11-17-2007, 02:29 AM
I agree, XP really sucked until service pack 2 came out. Not as bad as Vista but it was definitely up there. Alright have to ask how many of you have seen the new Mac commercial showing the look alike bill gates telling everyone "Its not what Vista can do for you, its what you can buy for Vista"

and their next-day onsite tech support is good, while the warranty lasts.

Thank you, Thank you, I know I'm awesome. HEHE I work for banctec which is one of the contractors that do dell and lexmark repairs with a few others on the list. And sir off the record I would never buy a dell. I bought a toshiba about 5 years ago and when I called tech support even when the warranty was up I got an American and its made in Japan. (I spilled tea on the keyboard and needed the part, it was the only problem I had with it) When you buy a dell however which is an American product you speak with India unless you spend the ridiculously priced gold warranty then you Texas. No disrespect to Indian citizens.

gunslinger
11-17-2007, 05:12 AM
What its comming down to is that everyone is going to be forced into running Vista at some point.

Just like ME, Vista will be replaced by a non-crappy OS before businesses migrate, and, if we're lucky, this new OS will be called Vista Service Pack 2 and, unlike ME, all the people scammed into buying Vista won't have to pay for a working OS.

Agreed, but how long will this take? service pack one is not yet out. Are we looking at maybe a year or two before we have service pack 2 and a stable windows os? I'm just not willing to suffer that long. How much data must I lose? How many times must I reinstall? I work on lots of systems, and have friends that work on many more and I have not heard one customer say that they like vista, not one. The two features they did like are the aero glass and spotlight oh i mean the " new search ". Thats not enough to make up for an unstable OS. I may give vista another shot after a few service packs and a lot of positive feed back. But right now I'll stick XP and soon to be OS X.

JohnR
11-17-2007, 05:51 AM
Are we looking at maybe a year or two before we have service pack 2 and a stable windows os?

Uh, no. You're looking at a year, maybe two, before VISTA is a stable and usable OS.

XP, however, is the same XP it always was. And it's still the best user-level desktop OS out there.

dipper
11-17-2007, 06:05 AM
Enough is enough, I had to reinstall again last week. I lost some music and data.

What happened to make you lose data?

because almost every program I run kills vista.

What programs are they and do the manufacturers say they are Vista compatible? Are all your drivers Vista compatible?

I've been running Vista Ultimate on the laptop I'm using now since the 2nd beta and apart from when I upgraded it to the release version have never reformatted. It has also never fozen, lost data etc.

There's things about Vista I'm not fond of and admitedly the laptop isn't my main machine (its all my wife uses though) so it is not pushed to the limits but I can honestly say there has been no major issues with it.

gunslinger
11-17-2007, 03:49 PM
In response to what programs killed vista: two games that I tried to install, nero (two different versions) even though it said vista compatible all over the box, about 6 different reg cleaners,VMware workstation ect. too many to name here. most of these said "vista compatible". I think your vista experience is very unique. You would be hard pressed to find just a few people that have never had problems with vista. I have friends that work at staples office supply. One of them told me that about 70-80% of the "vista compatible" software they sale does not actually work with vista and the customers try to return it.
In response to what data I lost: about 6 gigs of software, music, and photos. I back my data up to a slave drive on the weekends and the crash happened on a Thursday. My Acronis backup was also nuked ( second time thats happened with vista ).

dipper
11-18-2007, 02:46 AM
In response to what programs killed vista: two games that I tried to install, nero (two different versions) even though it said vista compatible all over the box, about 6 different reg cleaners,VMware workstation ect.).

My wife installed Nero last week and so far no problems. I use the reg cleaner ccleaner and again no problems.

Other programs in use are MS Office 2007, MYOB, Corel Paint Shop Pro XI, Macromedia Dreamweaver and Fireworks, TrendMicro AV, WinRAR, Spyware Terminator.

most of these said "vista compatible".

Yews but are they the latest versions with all patches applied?

I think your vista experience is very unique. You would be hard pressed to find just a few people that have never had problems with vista. I have friends that work at staples office supply. One of them told me that about 70-80% of the "vista compatible" software they sale does not actually work with vista and the customers try to return it.

But you cannot hold Vista or Microsoft responsible for third party applications that claim to work.


In response to what data I lost: about 6 gigs of software, music, and photos. I back my data up to a slave drive on the weekends and the crash happened on a Thursday. My Acronis backup was also nuked ( second time thats happened with vista ).

But what caused the crash and how could a crash cause 6 Gigs of data to be lost?

If Vista was solely responsible for data loss it would be worldwide news.

JohnR
11-18-2007, 03:18 AM
I've found Vista's reliability to be heavily hardware-dependent.

Put another way, I've found it's hardware support to be severely lacking. On some configurations, it will work exactly as designed - slowly, with all kinds of nonintuitive interface choices and a number of "helpful" annoyances, and on others, it will do all that *and* crash regularly, kill perfectly good programs, and corrupt HDD contents. On machines (even "certified vista-compatible" machines) where it's not going to work, it's perfectly capable of destroying your data and it nukes itself into inoperability.

If it's going to work, though, it tends to work as reliably as version 1.0 of any brand-new Microsoft OS ever has, and you're just stuck with it squandering massive resources and with program interfaces designed by drunken rhesus monkeys.

gunslinger
11-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Thanks JohnR I'm glad you did'nt drink the same coolaid dipper did....lol. As far as not being able to hold Microsoft responsible for 3rd party apps not working, I'm not but the fact is they don't and its one more strike aginst them either way. Most people who go buy a computer off the shelf are not tech savy. They don't know that they have to download the latest patches and drivers even though it says it with work on the box. Most people don't even know what the hell a driver is. They want to be able to plug in their printer and it just work, or insert a disk and the program just work. As for Microsoft causing data loss being news......yeah right! Thats to stupid to even comment on.

gunslinger
11-18-2007, 03:55 PM
Oh, and having been working on customers Vista machines regularly sense feb. this year. 3-5 Vista computers a week and I have not had one person say a positive thing about Vista. They all reflect the comments I have made here, and most want to return to XP. It should not take a service pack or two before the masses have a functional OS. I went through windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, and XP pre service pack, and I can say without a doubt the only one that comes close to Vista is ME and we all know what happend to it.

greggh
11-18-2007, 06:28 PM
Oh, and having been working on customers Vista machines regularly sense feb. this year. 3-5 Vista computers a week and I have not had one person say a positive thing about Vista. They all reflect the comments I have made here, and most want to return to XP. It should not take a service pack or two before the masses have a functional OS. I went through windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, and XP pre service pack, and I can say without a doubt the only one that comes close to Vista is ME and we all know what happend to it.

Of every customer we have feedback from about vista I have only seen one positive peice of feedback. Current feedback levels are somewhere right around 5100 now too. A lot of feedback, a lot of face to face time with customers. Nearly unanimous: vista sucks.

We can only hope that SP1 and SP2 do for vista what they did for XP. XPSP2 with all the patches and some basic fixes in place is a great desktop os for the general public. I still prefer linux and os x for their more secure unix-like underpinnings, but XPSP2 is finally (after 7 years?,) a decent operating system.

dipper
11-18-2007, 09:08 PM
Most people who go buy a computer off the shelf are not tech savy. They don't know that they have to download the latest patches and drivers even though it says it with work on the box. Most people don't even know what the hell a driver is.

But you presumably are a tech and know such things but you still go mouthing off against Vista when the problems you have are more than likely caused by a third party. BTW Did you upgrade the drivers, download patches on the applications you had issues with? Or did you even contact the companies support?

They want to be able to plug in their printer and it just work, or insert a disk and the program just work.

If you actually work as a tech you will know that this is 100% impossible even with XP. People being people and technology being technology makes things like this hard. It isn't helped with companies like Microsoft though sprouting on about how this is all possible though.


As for Microsoft causing data loss being news......yeah right! Thats to stupid to even comment on.

So you make a comment with nothing to back it up with! Come on this is getting to be school yard type of stuff.

I agree Vista is not perfect but when you sprout off stuff when it looks like you haven't even made the basic steps to rectify them it makes you look stupid.

Also why are companies releasing Vista only machines (like has been mentioned in this thread)? If Vista is as bad as you make it look their tech support lines would be clogged up and a big stink made with all this so called data lost.

dipper
11-18-2007, 09:18 PM
Of every customer we have feedback from about vista I have only seen one positive peice of feedback. Current feedback levels are somewhere right around 5100 now too. A lot of feedback, a lot of face to face time with customers. Nearly unanimous: vista sucks.

My own experience initially very similar as people weren't used to change, had issues with old incompatible hw, drivers weren't available and or s/w compatibility probs.

Recently though I have seen people's attitude changing both in real life and in online forums.

greggh
11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Also why are companies releasing Vista only machines (like has been mentioned in this thread)? If Vista is as bad as you make it look their tech support lines would be clogged up and a big stink made with all this so called data lost.

Well it bad, maybe not as bad with the data loss, but its still horrible. As for why they build Vista machines, they get huge cuts from Microsoft in the price and huge marketing incentives. I have been to 3 Microsoft events for our company and they have tried each time, with bigger bribes, to get me to start pushing Vista. Last time I think they finally gave up on the "free gifts" and cheaper Vista licenses ploy. They just had me sit down with a few Microsoft employees and a couple other guys in this area in my same job. We all had a big discussion and they said basically "all of that is fixed in SP1, when its finally released we will meet again and try to show you why Vista is the way you should go!"

Some of the "gifts" were nice though. A really nice laptop bag (messenger bag.) I use that now, I still dont push Vista.

greggh
11-18-2007, 09:25 PM
My own experience initially very similar as people weren't used to change, had issues with old incompatible hw, drivers weren't available and or s/w compatibility probs.

Recently though I have seen people's attitude changing both in real life and in online forums.

Did you drink the koolaid at that last microsoft event?

dipper
11-19-2007, 12:18 AM
As for why they build Vista machines, they get huge cuts from Microsoft in the price and huge marketing incentives. I.

Yes to a point but the big manufacturers know that with the correct drivers (which they control for their machines) that Vista is far from the crap that some people are trying to make it out to be.

It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded. Or those that buy the cheapest and / or the system builders that sell crap without proper testing beforehand.

dipper
11-19-2007, 12:29 AM
Did you drink the koolaid at that last microsoft event?

Well here are some online threads in forums where people are recommending Vista:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=720057
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=676959

Yes it is only one forum but people are out their recommending Vista. Yes Vista has problems but not everyone is experiencing these problems.

I think the ones drinking coolaid are the so called techs on here that cannot get a Vista running properly.

BTW I find it shocking that there are techs out there who do not have at least one machine running XP. How are these techs supposed to help end users who are using Vista when they have little experience using it themselves? And saying install XP is a stupid response!

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 03:08 AM
It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded. Or those that buy the cheapest and / or the system builders that sell crap without proper testing beforehand.


Oh really? I installed Vista on the system I built in February. Specs: Intel core 2 duo e6600 2.4 ghz. , 2 gigs of pc-6400 RAM , 320 gig SATA drive. It was at the time some of the best hardware that could be had. Most of the systems that I see having problems with vista are brand new or close to it and all far exceed the recommended specs for Vista.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 03:25 AM
[/QUOTE]
BTW I find it shocking that there are techs out there who do not have at least one machine running XP. How are these techs supposed to help end users who are using Vista when they have little experience using it themselves? And saying install XP is a stupid response![/QUOTE]


I know many techs and have never met one that did not have an XP machine.:rolleyes:
I will still run Vista on my virtual machine, but I will not make it my OS.
Why is installing a stable platform stupid? It works, it does what its asked without fuss, the hardware demands are far less and its still supported by Microsoft why is that stupid? :confused:
I think recommending someone install something that has proven its self time and again to be unstable is irresponsible at best.

breadtrk
11-19-2007, 03:30 AM
I've been running Vista since Beta 1 on an Asus A7N8X with generic soundcard drivers, AMD 300+ 1gb ram and have only had to reinstall when another beta version came out, I'm running the Business version from a copy I won at a launch event. So far no troubles at all. Plays NASCAR racing 2003, FreeLancer, All Flavors of MS flight Sim, CFS2 & 3, All flavors of Joint Operations, Anarchy Online, GUNSHIP! (a game from 1990), COD 4, Far Cry, Evercrack, EECH, EEAH, EECH 2 Demo, AA, Runs Office 2007, another launch event freebie, Prints to a 6 yr old Onkio printer, has an ATI x800x vid card, 2 sata 150 drives in software raid, 4 IDE drives on a PCI controller card, dual CRT monitors, Peaveys Sound patterning and analyzing software, Chief Architect, I can go on and on. Never had a crash. Couple ram induced lockups but never a BSOD.

If FolderSize ran on it, Vista would be perfect.

breadtrk
11-19-2007, 03:33 AM
I'm not suggesting Vista to customers yet snce I don't see any improvement worth upgrading.

Office 2007 is a different story. Every Word, Outlook, Excel, or Publisher user should upgrade today. The ribbon and the mouse over effects with it are beyond amazing and useful.

dipper
11-19-2007, 03:42 AM
Oh really? I installed Vista on the system I built in February. Specs: Intel core 2 duo e6600 2.4 ghz. , 2 gigs of pc-6400 RAM , 320 gig SATA drive. It was at the time some of the best hardware that could be had. Most of the systems that I see having problems with vista are brand new or close to it and all far exceed the recommended specs for Vista.

Having the latest CPU, m/b, RAM etc means nothing if it isn't Vista compatible and / or the drivers are crap.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 03:46 AM
" If you actually work as a tech you will know that this is 100% impossible even with XP "

Really? pretty much everything that I have plugged into an XP in the last 3 years has worked. Every single disk that said windows xp compatible on it has worked without fail.

dipper
11-19-2007, 03:48 AM
I'm not suggesting Vista to customers yet snce I don't see any improvement worth upgrading.

We take it on a case by case basis. eg If the customers is running specific apps with no Vista version or Vista equivalent then XP. If the customers is happy with XP and doesn't like change then again XP. If the customers wants the latest, doesn't mind change and is prepared for possible teething problems then Vista.

Office 2007 is a different story. Every Word, Outlook, Excel, or Publisher user should upgrade today. The ribbon and the mouse over effects with it are beyond amazing and useful.

We found a lot of people didn't like it at first but once they have placed with it a bit found it was great. The only issue is people sending 2007 file formats to people with old versions - thats where the format conversion addons are great.

dipper
11-19-2007, 03:49 AM
" If you actually work as a tech you will know that this is 100% impossible even with XP "

Really? pretty much everything that I have plugged into an XP in the last 3 years has worked. Every single disk that said windows xp compatible on it has worked without fail.

So why are you working as a tech then if everything works just fine and dandy under XP? If it did then technicians would not be needed!

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 03:49 AM
You say that I have no facts to back up my data loss claim? I don't know one person that has not had data loss due to a crash at some point Vista or otherwise. And I never said XP was without problems, I just said its a lot better than Vista. Maybe you don't have problems with Vista, good for you but the numbers don't lie most people do.

dipper
11-19-2007, 04:10 AM
You say that I have no facts to back up my data loss claim? I don't know one person that has not had data loss due to a crash at some point Vista or otherwise. .

I've never lost 6G of data or know of anyone who has due to a software problem (other than a virus / malware etc). Yes you can lose a file or 2 or 3 if your system crashes but nowhere near 6G, especially of different types of files.

Thats why I would like to know how you lost 6G of data??

Hardware problems yes, software no.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 04:11 AM
" Come on this is getting to be school yard type of stuff."

Only because you ignore that most people are having issues with Vista. As gregh said 5100 feedbacks and only one positive, same thing here with less people but 0% positive feed back about Vista. When you ignore facts you mark yourself as uninformed, close minded, or just plain stupid. As much as I would like to say Vista is great I can't even say its exceptable. At lest not yet.

" I've never lost 6G of data or know of anyone who has due to a software problem "
then you have not been working on computers long enough.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 04:29 AM
Having the latest CPU, m/b, RAM etc means nothing if it isn't Vista compatible and / or the drivers are crap.


That was not the argument. You said :" It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded."

Thats why I offered my system specs. :rolleyes:

dipper
11-19-2007, 04:37 AM
" Come on this is getting to be school yard type of stuff."

Only because you ignore that most people are having issues with Vista. .

I have stated that Vista is not perfect. I also provided links to where others are recommending Vista and have positive feedback


" I've never lost 6G of data or know of anyone who has due to a software problem "
then you have not been working on computers long enough.

I've been running a computer business over 14 years. Hardware issues, user issues, viruses, spyware etc have caused it but never seen an operating system cause 6G of data loss.

I'm still waiting to hear how you lost 6G of data? I'm not doubting it but I find it hard to beleive 6G of data was lost due to Vista.

dipper
11-19-2007, 04:39 AM
That was not the argument. You said :" It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded."

Thats why I offered my system specs. :rolleyes:

Nice selective quoting as I also said "without proper testing beforehand.".

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 12:18 PM
Nice selective quoting as I also said "without proper testing beforehand.".



Everyone I know used the Vista update advisor before upgrading, not real sure what you mean by "proper testing"

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 01:23 PM
Every point you have tried to make has been shot down. Vista is not stable, thats not my opinion, its a fact. There are lots of smaller problems that plague Vista: slow data transfer, missing shortcuts, random freezing, Bsod, ect. the list is too long. If people have been using XP for years and with few problems, and they have for the most part sense SP2 , then they switch to Vista and have all kinds of problems as they have been, how can you blame the end user? most of the people I know that are having problems with Vista, myself included did'nt change a thing. But now most of the software I want to use wont work, including my printer. I know, I know download the new drivers. I did, then it worked sometimes but was buggy.
You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right. If I have been driving a ford for years without any problems and I switch to a chevy and suddenly have all kinds of problems without changing the way I drive or anything else, the problem is chevy. Thats just the way it works.
At lest twice you have questioned if I was a computer tech. I think my background is on my profile. I have been working on computers for about 10 years and working with them sense the apple 2. I run a small shop and have for the last 6 years I will be expanding soon. I'm friends with other techs that have over 25 years in the industry and they agree with me as well. So what you are saying is that thousands of people including other computer techs are wrong and its all their fault if Vista is buggy. Can't argue with that logic I guess.
As far as why its flying off the shelves, around here its not anymore. Enough people bought it at the start of the year and had so many problems with it the word got out real fast. The people I know at staples, office max, best buy, were told to push the hell out of vista. And the people at the local Dell shop are told to not tell customers about being able to go back to XP unless they ask. Its called marketing and big business. Microsoft also counts each new system that comes with Vista preinstalled as a sale of Vista. Try finding an xp machine in your local name shop.
You said that if all these XP people were not having problems with their systems I would not have a business? Let me tell you what I get called out to do on XP machines: about 90% of the time its spyware/adware/malware/virus related. Setting up a home network. Someone forgot their password. Hard drive went out. these are just some of what I have had In the past week, but its these kinds of problems. Not so with Vista: slow data transfer from one local drive to another ( had that one myself ). random shut down, BSOD, " vista compatible " nero making costers again and when removed taking the drive firmware with it ( you could argue this is a nero problem, but it never did this on xp ), system wont reboot after Microsoft update, an entire account deleted. ect.
I'm not sure why you are pushing Vista, maybe money, maybe you have just convinced yourself that you are right and the rest of the world is just to stupid to use Vista. I don't know. What I do know is that everytime I shoot down one of your points, you switch to something else or point the finger at me or the customer. Last time I checked blaming the customer for a buggy product was not good business. You should either fix the product or replace it with one that does work (XP).

greggh
11-19-2007, 03:28 PM
Simple proof of how bad it is:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258

90% of IT professionals surveyed are not going to Vista, overwhelmingly because of stability. Of those, Vista was so bad that 44% have considered alternative operating systems..

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Simple proof of how bad it is:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258

90% of IT professionals surveyed are not going to Vista, overwhelmingly because of stability. Of those, Vista was so bad that 44% have considered alternative operating systems..

But greggh those 865 IT professionals and 5,299 customers you have had are all dip shits that don't know how to install updated drivers, just ask dipper he will tell ya.......... a hint of sarcasm there you think?

dipper
11-19-2007, 09:22 PM
Everyone I know used the Vista update advisor before upgrading, not real sure what you mean by "proper testing"

You call your self a tech and and all you do for proper testing is run Vista Update Adviser!

By proper testing I mean:
1) You find out want the clients wants and needs are. Or what you require out of the machine.
2) You build a machine and then test it with Vista.
3) Run the software on the machine that you / the client wants. Test to see if it works. This is probably the most important step ie you test out what you or the client wants.
4) Test other popular software.
5) Give the machine to others to use and play around with. Get their first hand opinions.

Then if eveything the client wants runs you put the machine into production and / or use the same components in new machines. It sounds like you do not have a test machine to see if things work and / or have issues under Vista using the componets your recommend.

If a particular device and / or software does not work is there another product that will do the same job that does work.

Since Vista RC1 etc has been out for around a year now you should now what works and what doesn't work under Vista. Thus when a client asks you are in a proper position to give the client the correct answer and recommend the best solution (which in the majority of my cases has been to use XP).

Note that I still recommend XP for some clients. You though seem to totally dismiss Vista and blame all Vista problems on Microsoft.

And in case you haven't read my comment above I have stated Vista is not perfect.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 09:49 PM
Ran Vista on a few test machines, been running it sense Dec. last year beta 2 then the full version in January. Tested the 64 and 32 bit versions, and you know what? they are all crap. The 64 bit version is even worse than the 32 bit. If I hand built every computer I worked on maybe I would have better control over some of the issues people have, but most bought their Vista machine from the store or ordered it from Dell and it came with Vista on it. There is not one good reason I can think of to recommend Vista. I will continue to recommend XP untill Vista works or Microsoft stops supporting XP.
You said that I "totally dismiss Vista and blame all Vista problems on Microsoft" ......um, well they made Vista who else should I blame?

dipper
11-19-2007, 09:53 PM
Every point you have tried to make has been shot down.

What Vista is not perfect has been shot down? I thought you agreed with that statement I made?????


how can you blame the end user?

You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right.

You contradict yourself in the same post?How I can I just blame the end user when you then say I blame 3rd party apps and you?


most of the people I know that are having problems with Vista, myself included did'nt change a thing. But now most of the software I want to use wont work, including my printer. I know, I know download the new drivers. I did, then it worked sometimes but was buggy.

Great, you have taken one step - ie you know what doesn't work - now go out and find what does. For myself I take this as being part of my job to find out what does and doesn't work. This way I can provide the best advice to my clients when they ask about Vista rather than just providing a general Vista is crap statement. Yes I know you cannot test everything but you should have at least a general understanding of what works (and if you don't try and have a machine where you can test it).


You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right. If I have been driving a ford for years without any problems and I switch to a chevy and suddenly have all kinds of problems without changing the way I drive or anything else, the problem is chevy. Thats just the way it works.

So if you put a working Chevy engine in your Ford and it doesn't work you will go to a car forum and jump up and down and complain that the Chevy engine is crap? (knowing my luck and having little car knowledge this would probably work ok, but I'm assuming its not. If it does then substitute a Toyata engine or something).

So what you are saying is that thousands of people including other computer techs are wrong and its all their fault if Vista is buggy. Can't argue with that logic I guess.

So you are saying that myself and other techs (along with IBM, HP, Acer, Lenova, etc) who all have working Vista machines are all wrong?


As I have said previously Vista is not suitable for everyone and is not perfect but you as a tech should have the knowledge to at least build or sourced a working Vista machine (which it seems you can't despite many other having done so) and / or know when and where Vista is suitable?

Try finding an xp machine in your local name shop.

I still sell XP machines. BTW By that comment I take it you can't? If so (or when in the future you can't source XP any more) what are you going to do? By your own comments you will not sell Vista so will you be selling just Linux machines and or 2nd had copies of XP?

I'm not sure why you are pushing Vista, maybe money, maybe you have just convinced yourself that you are right and the rest of the world is just to stupid to use Vista. I don't know.

I'm pushing whats best for the client and finding out their needs and wants. If they want Vista I sell them a working Vista machine. If they have equipment / software that doesn't work in Vista or don't want Vista I sell them XP. But I am not blinded by the blanket Vista is crap mentality that is our there that you seem to have.


What I do know is that everytime I shoot down one of your points, you switch to something else or point the finger at me or the customer.

Changing topic - thats a laugh I'm still waiting for your answer as to how Vista can make you lose 6G of data (this is the 3rd time I have asked).


Last time I checked blaming the customer for a buggy product was not good business. You should either fix the product or replace it with one that does work (XP).

You as a tech should know what does and doesn't work.

dipper
11-19-2007, 10:04 PM
well they made Vista who else should I blame?

Oh no my DOS game by XYZ company doesn't work under Vista. Let's go and blame Microsoft.

Or since you brought up cars in another post - this towbar from ABC company doesn't fit my Ford even though ABC says it does. Let's go blame Ford.

BTW What Microsoft program are you having problems with under Vista?

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 10:05 PM
The number of people having problems with vista far exceeds the number of people that have had no problems most likely by 1000-1 if not more. You say you have asked me about my data loss 3 times I think this is correct, and i'm willing to go into detail about the crash if you can answer my question: how can you blindly ignore all the facts and figures and numbers put before you and in good conscious recommend Vista to anyone? And anyone who reads this can see that you are pushing Vista as hard or harder than the big stores.

gunslinger
11-19-2007, 10:09 PM
I try to give my customers a product that works. If they go home with their new shiny Vista machine and none of their stuff works anymore its not my fault, but it sure does look bad on me.
And no, I will not sale Vista untill the bugs are worked out.

JohnR
11-19-2007, 10:15 PM
Great, you have taken one step - ie you know what doesn't work - now go out and find what does.

He has.

XP works right AND meets his customers' needs. Why would he change that?

So if you put a working Chevy engine in your Ford and it doesn't work you will go to a car forum and jump up and down and complain that the Chevy engine is crap? (knowing my luck and having little car knowledge this would probably work ok, but I'm assuming its not. If it does then substitute a Toyata engine or something).

No, your analogy is pretty good, just for reasons that you don't understand.

You SHOULD be able to replace any engine with any other engine of approximately the right size, on any vehicle - whether that means XP Pro or Ubuntu 7.10 or Windows 2000 or Windows Vista, any desktop OS that you meet the basic hardware requirements for should work in your PC. Sure, server OSen probably won't work right, but you didn't buy a truck. You bought a car.

What happens, however, is that when you stick Vista into a PC, what you get is the equivalent, in your car analogy that you don't understand, of tossing in an underpowered 4-cylinder sewing machine engine into your brand new F-350. Sure, you CAN do it, and sure, if you're lucky, almost everything will work just fine - but you'll be slow and noisy and wasteful.

I'm pushing whats best for the client and finding out their needs and wants.

Funny how that turns out to be "XP is better" in just about every case, isn't it?

If they want Vista I sell them a working Vista machine.

As do I. However, I make sure I'm selling them a version of Vista that carries downgrade rights for *when*, not if, Vista fails to meet their needs, and if their hardware doesn't have XP support, I make sure they know that before they order it.

when in the future you can't source XP any more) what are you going to do? By your own comments you will not sell Vista so will you be selling just Linux machines and or 2nd had copies of XP?

Vista Business or Ultimate = XP Pro. One for one, right out of the box. Owning a VB or VU license gives you the right to use XP, just like owning XP Pro gives you the right to install 2000 instead.

This is not complicated.

And by the time ME2K7's replacement comes out, either "the year of Linux on the desktop" will finally have arrived, or MS will have fixed the things that make a *working* installation of Vista far less attractive to the consumer and the technician than the XP Pro license they replaced it with.

dipper
11-19-2007, 10:37 PM
The number of people having problems with vista far exceeds the number of people that have had no problems most likely by 1000-1 if not more.

I have repeatedly said it is not perfect and that is why I recommend research and testing and do not go and say generalised comments like "Vista is crap".

You say you have asked me about my data loss 3 times I think this is correct, and i'm willing to go into detail about the crash if you can answer my question: how can you blindly ignore all the facts and figures and numbers put before you and in good conscious recommend Vista to anyone?
Because
- I try and find out as much as I can about the clients needs and then recommend whats the best for them (which could be XP or Vista).
- I have 2 machines with Vista in my office that work fine (one for approx 1 year and 1 for 2 months).
- I have sold Vista machines and the feedback from clients is good.
- clients have purchased Vista machines from elsewhere and they have had little problems.

This is not to say that Vista is perfect for everyone. As I have stated in this thread I have downgraded machines to XP for people where Vista is an issue.

And anyone who reads this can see that you are pushing Vista as hard or harder than the big stores.

How does saying that I provide clients with what they require mean I am pushing Vista? You are the one IMHO that is blindly ignoring Vista while I am selling either Vista or XP according to my clients needs and wants.

FYI I have sold more XP machines that Vista machines this year.

dipper
11-19-2007, 10:50 PM
He has.

XP works right AND meets his customers' needs. Why would he change that?


Because heaven forbid the client may want Vista? If so I then don't go and say "vista is crap". I ask their needs and if it is suitable sell them Vista if not then I explain the reasons why XP. Why sell an old product when the new product does what they need?

No, your analogy is pretty good, just for reasons that you don't understand.

You SHOULD be able to replace any engine with any other engine of approximately the right size, on any vehicle - whether that means XP Pro or Ubuntu 7.10 or Windows 2000 or Windows Vista, any desktop OS that you meet the basic hardware requirements for should work in your PC.

Preceise, it SHOULD work but as you know in some cases it doesn't but in some cases it does. You choose what is correct in the circumstance and not totally ignore other options like a lot of techs are doing.


Funny how that turns out to be "XP is better" in just about every case, isn't it?

So it is now "just about every case". What about the other cases then which is what I'm trying to get through??????????? I take it you ignore Vista and still push XP?



As do I. However, I make sure I'm selling them a version of Vista that carries downgrade rights for *when*, not if, Vista fails to meet their needs, and if their hardware doesn't have XP support, I make sure they know that before they order it.

If the system does not meet their needs then why sell it? You should have sold them a system that meets their needs now (whether that is XP or Vista).



Vista Business or Ultimate = XP Pro. One for one, right out of the box. Owning a VB or VU license gives you the right to use XP, just like owning XP Pro gives you the right to install 2000 instead.

This is not complicated.


Hmm, what about no XP drivers. It is more complicated than you think!

What about a user who has purchased Vista Basic!

JohnR
11-19-2007, 11:18 PM
So it is now "just about every case". What about the other cases then which is what I'm trying to get through?

Under what possible circumstances does a Vista machine meet a client's needs better than an XP machine?

If the system does not meet their needs then why sell it?

As you yourself said, because they insisted on Vista.

And if they insist on Vista, I will get them Vista. And *when* they realise that Vista is much slower and much more resource-intensive and much more annoying than XP, even assuming they got the recommended expensive and suboptimal definitely-Vista-compatible configuration, they switch back to XP.

You should have sold them a system that meets their needs now (whether that is XP or Vista).

There are no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP.

None.

Zero.

If you run into a piece of hardware that only offers Vista support, such as Lenovo's newest X61 tablets, it's better AND much cheaper to with different hardware - such as ASUS' R1F tablets, which run XP Tablet (Pro) instead.

Hmm, what about no XP drivers. It is more complicated than you think!

#1: Buy hardware that IS supported.

When nobody buys Vista-only hardware, the manufacturers can either put out drivers for other OSen, or they can lose their entire line.

#2: You can still get *95/98/ME* drivers for most hardware these days. You want to tell me that "Vista only" is going to become a serious problem in the lifetime of Vista? I don't think so.

What about a user who has purchased Vista Basic!

I have an advantage, here, in that I only deal with corporations: Nobody serious about computing wants crippleware, even if it does have useless flashy things, so nobody *buys* XP Home or Vista Basic or even Vista Premium.

But, in the unlikely event that my client disregards me entirely and buys Vista Basic, and discovers that it doesn't work, I'll get them a good price on a retail XP Pro or Vista Business with downgrade rights. And if they don't want to spend the $200-$300 it takes to give them all the usability they want, they stick with Vista, and simply swear about all the time and effort it's costing them. It's their choice.

Bryce W
11-19-2007, 11:26 PM
dipper and gunslinger, play nice.

I am going to step in here with my views. I posted this on another forum some time ago:

I work as a computer technician and I have seen and fixed many Vista computers. I have even used Vista on my main machine for a while.

Vista in itself is a pretty good OS (shock horror!). Hear me out though, most of Vistas issues including the ones here arent really Vistas fault.

- Slowness: Manufacturers are selling computers that are too underpowered for Vista. Ive seen a brand spanking new laptop with Vista that was sold with only 512 ram, much of that was taken up by the video card so it was really running with around 400mb or ram. Although Vista is resource heavy, its not Vistas fault that machines are being sold without the recommended requirements.

- Drivers and such: This was the deal breaker for me to revert back to XP. My printer wasnt supported yet and probably wont ever be (its like 5 years old, but is cheap to run and uber fast). Creating a driver for it is the responsibility of the device manufacturer, not Vistas.

- Crashes: Ive fixed many crashing Vista machines. Most of it is caused by crappy drivers, especially Video cards and soundcards. Once again, the stability of the drivers is the responsibility of the device manufacturer.

- Security and the UAC: One of the few things that is actually Vistas fault. Vista's security only helps newbie users from making dumb mistakes such as clicking on something they shouldnt. Its pretty useless for most advanced users and most viruses/adware/spyware will still get by. Just helps prevent dumb mistakes.

- Vista file copying/network issues: This one is Vistas fault was well. Something is not quite right in that part at the moment. Copying files is terribily slow but Im sure the next service pack will fix this up.

On a modern machine (im talking this years hardware) Vista is excellent. I just was forced to go back to XP because my other hardware like my printer was too old. Right now, I wouldnt recommend Vista to my computer repair clients, its a good OS but its just too new.

dipper
11-19-2007, 11:32 PM
Under what possible circumstances does a Vista machine meet a client's needs better than an XP machine?


As I previously stated and you actually quoted it (duh!) "because they insisted on Vista."


And if they insist on Vista, I will get them Vista. And *when* they realise that Vista is much slower and much more resource-intensive and much more annoying than XP, even assuming they got the recommended expensive and suboptimal definitely-Vista-compatible configuration, they switch back to XP.

There are plenty of people happy with and are still using Vista.



There are no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP.

None.

Zero.

You forgot one of the most important the client requests it.

In cases where XP is better if you can then explain clearly why Vista isn't the best (in case of incompatiblities or whatever) rather than a generalised "Vista is crap" comment then that is what you are paid for.

And if they don't want to spend the $200-$300 it takes to give them all the usability they want, they stick with Vista, and simply swear about all the time and effort it's costing them. It's their choice.

While others are using Vista fine (yes some people have problems but not everyone) and laughing at all the ill informed Vista is crap comments supposedly knowledgable techs make.

FYI This was written on a Vista Ultimate laptop that hasn't crashed or BSOD since it was put on over a year ago!

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 02:04 AM
Thanks for stepping in Bryce. My only points were: that vista is not a stable OS for the masses yet. No one in their right mind would argue that it is. Two: In my own personal experience Vista indeed sucks, although I have never said this to a customer. I do try to stir people away from it. Thanks also JohnR you are 100% right: "There are no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP" period end of story.

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 02:44 AM
I have to disagree with one thing you said Bryce: " On a modern machine (im talking this years hardware) Vista is excellent." Mine was almost the best money could buy in February this year Vista score of 5.3, and I have had nothing but issues with it till last week when I reinstalled XP Pro. I have not had one glitch sense the reinstall.

JohnR
11-20-2007, 03:01 AM
On a modern machine (im talking this years hardware) Vista is excellent.

I have to disagree. On portable machines ranging from $1000 HP laptops to $3500 IBM Tablets and MacBook Pros, and desktops from $800 Dells up to a $2000 massively overspecced "gaming PC", I've found Vista to be nothing but trouble, to have produced no satisfied users, and to produce greatly inferior results in terms of performance and usability versus XP, Ubuntu 6.06, 7.04, and 7.10 (once configured, which is NOT a casual task for an average user), and OSX 10.4.

I've heard of happy Vista users. I've never met one. The most enthused I've heard have said "it doesn't cause me many problems, and it's not much slower than XP" - which is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

dipper
11-20-2007, 06:22 AM
dipper and gunslinger, play nice.
Vista in itself is a pretty good OS (shock horror!). Hear me out though, most of Vistas issues including the ones here arent really Vistas fault.


Precisely, this is what I've been trying to say all along but as soon as I mention that Vista is good for certain users I get howled down - how dare I say anything good about Vista.

dipper
11-20-2007, 06:25 AM
I've heard of happy Vista users. I've never met one. The most enthused I've heard have said "it doesn't cause me many problems, and it's not much slower than XP" - which is not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Haven't you heard what I have been saying? - I'm a happy Vista user!

By the looks of things Bryce is too.

Is it only us Australians who like it?

Bryce W
11-20-2007, 12:20 PM
To be honest, I dont really see any performance difference speed wise between XP and Vista on my own machine with the exception of copying files and network as I mentioned earlier.

The system I was using it on is a Quadcore Q6600, 2gig ram, 640mb 8800GTS video card. Vista was definitely better at handling program crashes and hangs than XP. Although Vista may cause more crashes due to dodgy software/drivers, it definitely handled them better.

On the above system, I really really liked Vista, but had to revert due to lack of drivers for my devices. However, my media PC which is running Vista crashes frequently but I havent gotten around to determining whether thats a Vista or hardware issue. One of my close friends who is an ex computer technician also runs Vista and loves it.

I guess it plays nice on certain hardware and is a total bitch on other hardware. Once again I think this is still a crappy driver issue caused by the hardware vendors.

Like most of you.. I wouldnt recommend Vista to my clients.. not yet anyway.

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 12:33 PM
Good to see you are not recommending Vista at this point Bryce.

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Did you not read what Bryce said, he's not even using Vista due to printer driver issues. He is not a " happy vista user ". If it works for you , great , but understand both you and Bryce are in the minority when it comes to problems with Vista. I had some driver issues as well but quickly fixed those. What about the random freezing, BSOD, slow data transfer, random shortcut deleting, " vista certified " apps working sometimes and not others, and massive memory use, that the rest of us many tens of thousands of people have experienced? Do you just disregard that? Are we all too stupid to get Vista to work right? There are still no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP....none. Anything Vista can do XP can do and be much more stable while doing it. So until the bugs are worked out of Vista why not stick with a known good thing in XP? This has been my point all along.

JohnR
11-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Haven't you heard what I have been saying? - I'm a happy Vista user!

And I've never met you.

dipper
11-20-2007, 01:00 PM
Did you not read what Bryce said, he's not even using Vista due to printer driver issues. He is not a " happy vista user ".

Bryce wrote "I really really liked Vista" and "Vista in itself is a pretty good OS", it looks like you are the one who didn't read what Bryce wrote!


If it works for you , great , but understand both you and Bryce are in the minority when it comes to problems with Vista. I had some driver issues as well but quickly fixed those. What about the random freezing, BSOD, slow data transfer, random shortcut deleting, " vista certified " apps working sometimes and not others, and massive memory use, that the rest of us many tens of thousands of people have experienced?

In reponse to your above points:
- randon freezing - never experienced this.
- BSOD - again I've had none.
- randon shortcut deleting - first I've heard of this.
- slow data transfer. I've experienced this but found it not to be a major hassle.
- vista certified apps not working. All the apps I use (certified and not certified) work.
- massive memory use. This is the same for all new O/S!


Do you just disregard that? Are we all too stupid to get Vista to work right?


Am I too stupid as I have Vista working great?


There are still no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP....none. Anything Vista can do XP can do and be much more stable while doing it. So until the bugs are worked out of Vista why not stick with a known good thing in XP? This has been my point all along.

You can live in the past and totally ignore Vista while myself and many others laugh at you as we are all running Vista fine.

Yes some of my clients use XP and I still sell XP boxes. I take each situation on a case by case basis and recommend what is best for the client. This is my point.


BTW I'm still waiting to hear how Vista caused you to lose 6G of data????

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 01:15 PM
I would think you would need to actually be running Vista to be a " happy Vista user ".
Just because you have never experienced any of these things you seem to totally disregard the fact that most people have.

"You can live in the past and totally ignore Vista while myself and many others laugh at you as we are all running Vista fine."

Ah, I get it now. you like Vista because its all new and shiny. Last time I checked XP was still supported, and I see no reason to switch until they drop support or Vista becomes stable, not just for you and a handful of others but for most users.

You still have not told me why you would recommend Vista over XP ( a good reason, not just because someone asks for it)and what Vista can do that XP cannot.

gunslinger
11-20-2007, 01:30 PM
When Microsoft does drop support for XP, if Vista is still not stable I'll just go to OS X.

dipper
11-20-2007, 09:26 PM
I would think you would need to actually be running Vista to be a " happy Vista user ".

You don't need to own or drive a Porsche, Ferarri etc to know they are good and that you would be a happy Porsche or Ferarri driver!

He has used Vista and told us his comments - you ignore them just like you are ignoring all the other happy Vista users.


Just because you have never experienced any of these things you seem to totally disregard the fact that most people have.


I have repeatedly said Vista is not perfect and not suitable for everyone. Do you not read what I have said or do you just try to put your own interpretation on everything?


"You can live in the past and totally ignore Vista while myself and many others laugh at you as we are all running Vista fine."

Ah, I get it now. you like Vista because its all new and shiny. Last time I checked XP was still supported, and I see no reason to switch until they drop support or Vista becomes stable, not just for you and a handful of others but for most users.


Thats fine for you but your sort of attitude is no good for any of your clients when you totally ignore an operating system which may be suitable for them.


You still have not told me why you would recommend Vista over XP ( a good reason, not just because someone asks for it)and what Vista can do that XP
cannot.

As I have repeatedly mentioned, I take each client on a case by case basis (tell me what is wrong with that?). If all they do is surf the Internet, run MS Office applications and use applications that either they or myself know will run fine in Vista why sell them an old product? You explain to the client the pros and cons of both XP and Vista and then if both products suit their needs let them make the choice. This is what I take my job to be and not simply ignore the fact that there are people out their that like Vista and is suitable for the wants and needs.

You repeatedly say you havn't met a happy Vista user but then ignore people on this group who say they like it (and it is not just me!). It's no wonder you haven't met a happy Vista user as you seem to be blind to other peoples opinions especially when they disagree with you.

BTW I am STILL waiting to hear how 6G of data loss was caused by Vista.

thecoldone06
11-20-2007, 09:40 PM
BTW I am STILL waiting to hear how 6G of data loss was caused by Vista.

I've been using Vista at work for a while now. Every month I have to burn CD's for three of our clients, basically a bunch of PDF's put onto CD. Easy enough right? When I copied the files from my AS/400 (through windows explorer) and put them on CD, it didn't put them on the CD but deleted them from my AS/400. I then spent 4 hours trying to get those reports back and needless to say used XP to burn the files once I did get them back. I'm not commenting on anything else about Vista but that could've been one reason for the data loss.

JohnR
11-20-2007, 10:34 PM
You don't need to own or drive a Porsche, Ferarri etc to know they are good and that you would be a happy Porsche or Ferarri driver!

Uh, once again you've used a car metaphor, and demonstrated EXACTLY *our* point, not yours.

High-end sports cards are notoriously unreliable, because they're so expensive and made in such few numbers that they simply haven't made enough of them to find and fix the less-obvious manufacturing defects.

When they work, they're very pretty and handle well and are very impressive. Then they break, suddenly and without warning.

Like Vista.

You repeatedly say you havn't met a happy Vista user but then ignore people on this group who say they like it

Actually, *I* said I'd never met a happy Vista user, just the once, and I then said I haven't met you, or Bryce.

Because I haven't. I've never met you. I've never seen your setup. I don't know, for sure, that you've even ever installed Vista. I have no reason to believe you're lying, but I *also* can't call you a data point in favour of "people I have seen be happy with Vista systems that I have seen", because you aren't.

Bryce W
11-21-2007, 01:36 AM
Did you not read what Bryce said, he's not even using Vista due to printer driver issues. He is not a " happy vista user ".
Actually, it wasnt a driver issue.. it was just a lack of a driver for Vista. The printer is very old but I still run it because its fast, reliable and dirt cheap to use.

To the anti-Vista people in this thread.. what sort of problems are you seeing besides the slow copying/networking issues? If its a BSOD, do you remember what it was?

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 01:59 AM
Random freezing, BSOD, slow data transfer, random shortcut deleting, " vista certified " apps working sometimes and not others, and massive memory use just to name a few, it also seems that everytime I would uninstall a large program or game it would crash the system, that by the way is how I lost my 6 gigs of data. I removed the call of duty demo, the system froze, I rebooted and got BSOD. After a few tries I got it to boot up and everything in My Documents folder was gone, plus my virtual machine. Used two different apps trying to get the data back. One refused to work at all with Vista and the other told me the data was corrupt. I'm not really anti Vista, If Microsoft puts out a service pack for it and makes as stable as XP I'll be the first guy to recommend it.

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 02:01 AM
Thanks thecoldone06, nice to see I'm not alone in my data loss. JohnR , its the same here,I have never met a happy Vista user either. Thats because they are about a rare as 4 oz. jars of pickled chicken lips.

focuz
11-21-2007, 02:18 AM
holly crap, I don't visit the forums for a few days and an all out vista vs xp squabble started.

I along with most techs I know are drawn in the middle of the debate. For end users that just want to surf the net and don't have money to upgrade in a few years I recommend Vista. I have gone back and asked them if they where satisfied and for the majority none of them had issues. I have seen Vista run with frequent freezes only due to bad drivers and have seen very little vista os related crash issues.

For any type of tech savy client that is going to have alot of older hardware they need compatible or want the stability or business client I strongly urge them to stay with XP. The only reason for this is that the OS is to young and needs to mature more. I do this with every OS though. When XP first came out I told everyone the same, just to wait a year or two until the first patch was released.

This is always the part about being a tech that sucks you get forced into using buggy software and OS as soon as it releases so that you know the issues your clients will be faced with.

JohnR
11-21-2007, 02:32 AM
what sort of problems are you seeing besides the slow copying/networking issues?

Slow performance, in general - not just networking, but also desktop performance, memory and CPU usage, program loading, etc.

As well, annoyances in the interfaces - it took me *7* confirmation windows to copy a program to desktop, run it, and delete it, above what XP asked.

As well, annoyances in the interfaces - not only is very little in the same place, but very little is even in the same menu. While I understand putting Device Manager under the Control Panel - it always SHOULD have been there - renaming Add/Remove Programs was just a pain in the ass, and the Control Panel loads so slowly that it's a serious problem to find the right panel to get programs added or removed.

And then there's stability issues.

On three genuine "vista-compatible" Dell Dimension E521s, two of them shipped from Dell with Vista installed, Vista Business crapped out roughly once a working day and froze, hard, requiring a reboot. Since installing XP Pro, not one crash. On two stupidly expensive Lenovo X61 "vista-only" tablets, Vista freezes for 20 seconds at a time, regularly, and locks up hard requiring a hard reboot roughly once every two business days. On a pair of el cheapo HP laptops purchased last month, running Vista Home Premium and Office 2007 Standard, the machines crash every 3-4 hours of use. The same happens with the same machines and Office 2003 Professional, and OpenOffice 2.3. The problem is clearly Vista.

I have not ever found a stable Vista hardware configuration. The hardware guys I buy from haven't found one, in laptop or desktop configuration. *DELL* hasn't managed to create a stable setup, yet.

I believe you when you say you've found one. I, simply, haven't seen it.

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 02:52 AM
Most of the Vista systems I have worked on have been Dell or Acer both laptops and desktops. Mine is custom built. I went into my logs that I keep about repairs made and problems encountered. Along with the problems I stated above: Vista freezes for 20-30seconds at a time (just as john said), blue screen after microsoft update, data loss ofter update, corrupt files after system freeze, files wont copy or do copy then are corrupt, all desktop icons and start menu shortcuts missing ( had that one myself more than once). I have a list here that would take up most of this page. The only Xp issues that have come my way in the past 2-3 months have been spyware/virus, forgot password, and could not get Norton to uninstall. Big difference in problem types here.

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 03:38 AM
Two Chris Pirillo videos that I like and I think you all might find of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HELrxLdP85c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tfr7WSPXCg&feature=related

dipper
11-21-2007, 04:36 AM
Whoops my apologies it was 2 different users with data loss.
Ignore this post.

I've been using Vista at work for a while now. Every month I have to burn CD's for three of our clients, basically a bunch of PDF's put onto CD. Easy enough right? When I copied the files from my AS/400 (through windows explorer) and put them on CD, it didn't put them on the CD but deleted them from my AS/400. I then spent 4 hours trying to get those reports back and needless to say used XP to burn the files once I did get them back. I'm not commenting on anything else about Vista but that could've been one reason for the data loss.

Trying to fit 6G onto 1 CD - I think that is your problem!

Hmmm you say here it is PDF's later you say it is "Call of Duty" demo.

You could at least keep your story straight!

dipper
11-21-2007, 04:46 AM
Actually, *I* said I'd never met a happy Vista user, just the once, and I then said I haven't met you, or Bryce.


Actually you said:
"The most enthused I've heard have said "it doesn't cause me many problems, and it's not much slower than XP"

Have you heard the comments on this thread or are you blind when someone says they like Vista?

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 04:51 AM
I 'm pretty sure you are confusing my story with thecoldone06, he was backing up pdf files and Vista nuked the data. I was uninstalling call of duty 4 demo when Vista decided I did'nt need my wedding videos , pics and my virtual machine anymore.
By the way, I don't think anyone on this website would try to fit 6 gigs of data on a CD, thats an insult to all of us.

dipper
11-21-2007, 04:55 AM
I believe you when you say you've found one. I, simply, haven't seen it.

Try and install Vista from scratch on the machine and see what it is like.

dipper
11-21-2007, 11:05 AM
Two Chris Pirillo videos that I like and I think you all might find of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HELrxLdP85c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tfr7WSPXCg&feature=related

I'm partway through the 1st video (can't watch the whole lot as I'm off interstate shortly and have to pack - BTW I'm taking my Vista laptop with me!).

Chris is correct, he tested it on his main machine and it is not suitable for what he does on that machine so installed XP. He tested it on a laptop and he is happy with it on the laptop. (This is the similar for me, my main machine is XP, one of my laptops is Vista).

This is what I have been saying all along - there are applications and uses for which Vista is fine. This is what you seem to be ignoring.

JohnR
11-21-2007, 12:24 PM
Try and install Vista from scratch on the machine and see what it is like.

Uh, where did you get the impression that I hadn't?

Blues
11-21-2007, 02:24 PM
I been trying to stay out of this but damn you people are disappointing me. Vista is not perfect I have had some issues but haven't worked with this too much. I think dipper is makin himself look bad mixing who is saying what becuase he doesn't seem to be quoting people correctly. I run XP becuase it works and is less trouble I would consider running Vista but I don't have any reason to.

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 03:25 PM
Exactly Blues, XP works and is far less trouble than Vista. There is nothing you can do in Vista that can't be done in XP and on a more stable system, so why would I recommend anyone upgrade?

JJsMom
11-21-2007, 03:41 PM
I guess I will add my 2 cents. I have been following this thread and I must say, I have a dell computer that came Vista Ready. Anyway I recently invested in Vista just so that I could get to know it a bit. I like it for the most part but it is a memory hog. I don't put any important documents on it because I am on an exploration mission. I just switch out hard drives (XP or Vista). Like all MS products I used in the pass, eventually they stabilize. Applications and software are very limited with Vista so I am waiting to see what comes next. BTW I have a friend that has it and he loves it. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Like many of you said, there really was no need for my to get Vista other than wanting to be prepared when I get a customer that has it.

gunslinger
11-21-2007, 03:56 PM
I'll still run vista inside my virtual machine so that i'll have the ability to work on it when I need to, but I think its far too unstable for a primary OS at this point. When I first installed Vista all seemed well other than the fact my printer stopped working. I expected to have to update some drivers. After finding Vista drivers for my video card and printer everything worked but the printer was buggy it would work at times, sometimes not and it said my ink levels were low even with new ink cartridges. Other than this it seemed ok, until I started installing software and putting music, movies, photos ect. on it. The more I installed the worse things got.

Blues
11-21-2007, 08:22 PM
Instead of a virtual Vista instal I would try a dual boot with XP and Vista as I haven't had any problems setting that up granted the user did fubar his Vista install and not consult me so I had to set it up a 2nd time.

gunslinger
11-22-2007, 03:43 AM
I did try a dual boot with XP and Vista. The xp partition messed up the Vista partition twice, so I started using it on a VM.

gunslinger
11-22-2007, 06:23 PM
Does anyone know when SP1 is comming out?

greggh
11-23-2007, 12:37 AM
Does anyone know when SP1 is comming out?

Vista SP1 is scheduled to be released in the first quarter of 2008.

Supposedly it will be out in mid febuary.

dipper
11-23-2007, 05:50 AM
As I mentioned above I am currently in Sydney for a computer security seminar. There were 7 speakers at the seminar (Australian and Americans who are mostly MS MVPs, or run their own business etc) and the audience was mainly techs and consultants involved in MS Small Business Server and Windows Server solutions.

The question came up to the panel about whether they would deploy Vista. Six out of 7 said they would (this even suprised me!) and that current issues are mainly to do with 3rd party apps and drivers!

The question was also put to the audience and most people responded that they would have no issues deploying Vista. A few complained about performance issues but where mainly told to disable Aero or some of the other graphical "features".

There will hopefully be a video available online shortly. When it is released I will let you know.

XT18
11-23-2007, 06:23 AM
I got vista as it came with my new computer didint have any problems with it at all seems very stable on my machine i use to have some problems when i installed it on my older p4 machine alot of bugs but it seems like vista is bad with older hardware so for those with a lil older hardware shouldent waist time with vista as it aint going to work right.

gunslinger
11-23-2007, 11:56 AM
As far as installing 3rd party apps and drivers being the only reason Vista is buggy: maybe you are right, maybe if I just installed Vista and MS office all would be great. How many people are going to do that? So I can't install my photoshop, foxit reader, 7-zip, Ashampoo burning studio, Firefox, AVG, VLC player or my printer software. If I do Vista gets buggy? Thats all 3rd party apps and drivers and they all work perfectly on XP.
Like I said before, all these problems can't just be the 3rd party apps. but maybe some are, at any rate its going to take time for the software companies to make Vista stable apps. and drivers, and even more time for Microsoft to make a service pack for it. Maybe 6-8 months into next year Vista will be more usable and I might even give it another shot. I for one am not going to put my life on hold until Vista works. I should not have to wrap my life around my OS.

As a side note, I think its kind of funny that only Microsoft software works well with Vista........but maybe thats by design.

Blues
11-23-2007, 05:42 PM
The problem is honestly not as much with Vista as it is with the 3rd party applications and drivers. This issue still falls back on MS to some degree as I believe with as easy a time these 3rd party companies had with XP MS must have made some complicated changes in Vista. I just buy what suits the needs of myself or the end user. The best thing for the money right now as far as OEM goes is MS Windows XP MCE 2005 $115 or somewhere around that. XP Pro if you really need it and well Home I just don't like so is basicly XP Pro or XP MCE 2005. If I do a Vista machine I would be using Ultimate or Business as they each provide downgrade license and offer the best and most useful features. Home Premium would be good if I hadn't found some reported problems online wish I could recall them and share them.

gunslinger
11-23-2007, 10:36 PM
I guess thats the biggest problem I have with Vista: Most of my software wont work with it. As is the case with most people I do work for we have lots of expensive software that suddenly wont work. We should not have to go out and re-buy it all.

dipper
11-24-2007, 01:38 AM
I guess thats the biggest problem I have with Vista: Most of my software wont work with it. As is the case with most people I do work for we have lots of expensive software that suddenly wont work. We should not have to go out and re-buy it all.

Thats why you should test the software 1st and if it doesn't work go back to XP. Which is what I've said all along!

I'm not forcing you to use Vista but you seemed to bag people who are using Vista and are happy with it.

gunslinger
11-24-2007, 04:26 AM
Thats why you should test the software 1st and if it doesn't work go back to XP. Which is what I've said all along!

I'm not forcing you to use Vista but you seemed to bag people who are using Vista and are happy with it.


Most new systems don't come with XP, so there is no way to tell until you get the new computer if your software will work. Most of the software that says Vista comp. on the box is not. Not everyone has a "downgrade" option. I'm not "bagging" anyone that uses Vista and likes it. If it works for you, great. But for most people it does not. Oh, and I did test a lot of software on Vista and most of my software would not work with it, thats why I no longer run it or recommend anyone else do.

gunslinger
11-24-2007, 04:32 AM
Oh and as far as being forced into Vista, its just a matter of time. When Microsoft no longer supports XP, your choices will be Vista, linux, or OS X. And right now OS X is looking pretty good.

JohnR
11-24-2007, 04:39 AM
Microsoft stops supporting desktop OSen after *two* full desktop releases.

Meaning, XP will be supported as long as Vista is current, and as long as the one past Vista is current. When two full new desktop operating systems after Vista have come out, Microsoft will stop supporting XP.

And yes, this means that they finally stopped supporting ME when Vista was released, because They only keep 3 Desktop OSen in support at any one time - Vista, XP, 2000. When Vista's successor comes out, they'll drop 2000.

And as long as you can buy Vista Business or Ultimate, you can use XP Pro on the same license. That won't change, either.

Blues
11-24-2007, 07:17 AM
John I would have to dig it up but I think MS changed thier support duration XP support will end before they even annouce a successor to Vista from what I recall. Thats an exageration but the point is XP support I think is going to end sooner then you expect. I could be wrong this is from memory and I saw this months back and since I think I heard reports of them extending it.

JohnR
11-24-2007, 12:30 PM
John I would have to dig it up but I think MS changed thier support duration XP support will end before they even annouce a successor to Vista from what I recall. Thats an exageration but the point is XP support I think is going to end sooner then you expect. I could be wrong this is from memory and I saw this months back and since I think I heard reports of them extending it.

You're thinking XP's OEM sales. That's a tad different from their support.

It's been hard to buy Windows 2000 for years. However, you don't have to buy 2000. You could just buy XP Pro and install 2000, and 2000 was (and still is) fully supported by MS.

And yes, they had scheduled to stop selling OEM XP licenses, and they extended that deadline due to massive consumer (specifically, corporate consumer) demand. But that doesn't mean they're going to stop support of XP.

gunslinger
11-24-2007, 03:48 PM
I know I'll be sticking with XP for a good long time. Vista has nothing to offer me. Having used it for the past year I can honestly say there are no pros in making the switch but there are a lot of cons. (Except for aero glass and improved search)
Speaking of Vista cons. My wife's uncle and I were discussing his new Dell over Thanksgiving turkey Thursday. His old system had gone out for the last time so he "upgraded" to a new Vista machine. Take in mind the only reason he even has a computer is so he can connect to work and work from home. After setup he found that he could not connect to his work. He called the IT dep. only to be told that the program they use to link him will not work on Vista ( guess they didn't get the memo about how great Vista is ).

dipper
11-25-2007, 02:43 AM
Most new systems don't come with XP, so there is no way to tell until you get the new computer if your software will work.

Before they upgrade you install the programs they want on a Vista machine and test it! Its easy! You do have a Vista machine to test things on don't you? You can also speak with others who use the software and or the manufacturers (especially their support forums). While this is not perfect it will provide a good basis on whether the software will work or not.

Some of our customers went and bought Vista machines rather then coming through us. They then became the guinea pigs as well with us testing the company's internal software.

For us it has been very easy to test. If the software doesn't work with Vista don't you have options for XP?

Bryce W
11-25-2007, 02:34 PM
As far as installing 3rd party apps and drivers being the only reason Vista is buggy: maybe you are right, maybe if I just installed Vista and MS office all would be great. How many people are going to do that? So I can't install my photoshop, foxit reader, 7-zip, Ashampoo burning studio, Firefox, AVG, VLC player or my printer software. If I do Vista gets buggy? Thats all 3rd party apps and drivers and they all work perfectly on XP.

I can verify that all of these 3rd party apps work great and stable on Vista (except Ashampoo cos I dont use it, therefor cant verify).


I guess thats the biggest problem I have with Vista: Most of my software wont work with it. As is the case with most people I do work for we have lots of expensive software that suddenly wont work. We should not have to go out and re-buy it all.
As I said in my post in this thread a while ago. All this isnt Vistas fault, its the software creators.

End users are definitely stuck in a crappy place. What will happen is that due to the new systems being built, all Windows software will be created/tested with Vista in mind. Vista will become more stable and most applications will work on it.

gunslinger
11-25-2007, 03:37 PM
" I can verify that all of these 3rd party apps work great and stable on Vista (except Ashampoo cos I dont use it, therefor cant verify)."

Actually I had real problems with Vista 64 bit and firefox, AVG, and VLC. Maybe all thats been fixed with newer versions.

" End users are definitely stuck in a crappy place. What will happen is that due to the new systems being built, all Windows software will be created/tested with Vista in mind. Vista will become more stable and most applications will work on it."

Exactly, but its going to take time. As I said before in another six months to a year I might not have a problem recommending Vista as soon as service pack one comes out and fixes most of its issues.
Also I think any software maker thats slaps " Vista compatible " on the box should be testing the software on Vista machines first, some don't. I have seen maybe 12-15 customers go out and buy software that said it would work with Vista only to have them put in the disk and get an error that reads " this software has known compatibility issues with Vista " this has happend on different systems in the same house. There is no way the people who made this software tested it on a real system.
Another though is one of perspective. I try to see things from the customers point of view. If all their software, and printers scanners ect. worked, then Vista was tossed into the mix and suddenly most of it does not work or is buggy when it does, the problem is Vista not the rest of the world.
I work out with weights and take lots of supplements, sometimes taking as many as 20-30 pills a day, if I add a new one in and I get sick or feel bad I don't blame the other things that have worked for me for years, I blame the new stuff and stop taking it. Maybe later this product is fixed but I'll always have a bad taste in my mouth from it.

NWPhotog
11-25-2007, 03:44 PM
I agree with most of your points Dipper. I haven't found any huge issues concerning Vista although I have't found compelling reasons to move to it either. I see a lot of anti-Vista talk that doesn't have a lot of substance. OTH, MS has failed to get good acceptance for Vista and it appears Vista's replacement will be available before XP will be 100% retired. All in all I think MS has screwed the pooch from a marketing and PR point of view.

JohnR
11-25-2007, 03:47 PM
it appears Vista's replacement will be available before XP will be 100% retired.

Take a look at MS' software support policies. That was ALWAYS part of the plan, regardless of whether or not Vista took off and was the new killer app or not.

*2000* is not 100% retired, and MS won't consider it so until Vista's replacement is out.

gunslinger
11-25-2007, 04:02 PM
I agree with most of your points Dipper. I haven't found any huge issues concerning Vista although I have't found compelling reasons to move to it either. I see a lot of anti-Vista talk that doesn't have a lot of substance. OTH, MS has failed to get good acceptance for Vista and it appears Vista's replacement will be available before XP will be 100% retired. All in all I think MS has screwed the pooch from a marketing and PR point of view.


Don't have a lot of substance huh? So all the dissatisfied Vista users that myself and many other techs have encountered is beside the point? I offer numbers, facts, figures and specific problems that both myself and many others have had. The pro Vista people say "well, um.....Vista works ok for me so it must be good" Guess I can't argue with all that substance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNWyqs2Tlkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_50CKZQ10cM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pbRS9TXtVk&feature=related

gunslinger
11-26-2007, 01:53 AM
Bottom line is Vista made it to market without being finished, maybe SP1 will complete this beta software.

dipper
11-26-2007, 05:09 AM
I offer numbers, facts, figures and specific problems that both myself and many others have had. The pro Vista people say "well, um.....Vista works ok for me so it must be good" Guess I can't argue with all that substance.

But most of your issues are with third party applications and drivers. You cannot hold MS or Vista 100% responsible for that.

gunslinger
11-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Like I said before if everything else worked fine until Vista came along, now it does not you can't blame everything else. You have to blame the last thing added. Regardless if you think its the 3 party apps fault or not there are still lots of issues with Vista not getting along well. I still think your argument for Vista is like one schizophrenic person calling everyone else crazy. Thing is if there was any other one piece of software out as buggy as Vista most people would say don't buy it.
I'm not an Apple fanboy or a Microsoft fanboy I just want software that works without a lot of fuss. As i'm sure most people do.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 01:11 PM
Like I said before if everything else worked fine until Vista came along, now it does not you can't blame everything else.

As an experienced computer tech do you realize how wrong that is?

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 01:15 PM
Don't have a lot of substance huh? So all the dissatisfied Vista users that myself and many other techs have encountered is beside the point? I offer numbers, facts, figures and specific problems that both myself and many others have had. The pro Vista people say "well, um.....Vista works ok for me so it must be good" Guess I can't argue with all that substance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNWyqs2Tlkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_50CKZQ10cM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pbRS9TXtVk&feature=related

Sorry, after listening to your evidence it seems totally anecdotal. Many people love to hate MS and that seems the real basis for most of the complaints. I worked for HP at the time and a year after XPs release we didn't have drivers for many HP products? Was that MS's fault? Not in my opinion.

JohnR
11-26-2007, 01:49 PM
As an experienced computer tech do you realize how wrong that is?

What's so wrong about "everything worked before Vista. Vista adds no desirable features. Everything went to **** with Vista. Removing Vista fixed all the problems" being the train of logic you use to reach the conclusion "installing Vista is bad"?

It's a slow OS with compatibility problems, and no new features that justify the overhead and make it worth dealing with the compatibility. Forget if it's MS' fault or not - regardless of whose fault it is that Vista is bloated, slow, and has compatibility issues with everything, the fact remains that it is these things, and so there's still no compelling reason to upgrade, at all.

gunslinger
11-26-2007, 02:08 PM
Could not have said it better JohnR. I'm glad there is still some people here with common sense.

"As an experienced computer tech do you realize how wrong that is?"

As an experienced computer tech I know this to be true, its simple logic. If everything is running fine on my system and I add a program and my computer starts to malfunction the logical thing to do is to remove the offending program and see if things get better, if all the problems go away I know that program is unstable and is causing issues. I don't go change everything on my system and buy all new hardware to accommodate that one program. I find a stable program that does the same job. Its just common sense.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 02:13 PM
What's so wrong about "everything worked before Vista. Vista adds no desirable features. Everything went to **** with Vista. Removing Vista fixed all the problems" being the train of logic you use to reach the conclusion "installing Vista is bad"?

It's a slow OS with compatibility problems, and no new features that justify the overhead and make it worth dealing with the compatibility. Forget if it's MS' fault or not - regardless of whose fault it is that Vista is bloated, slow, and has compatibility issues with everything, the fact remains that it is these things, and so there's still no compelling reason to upgrade, at all.

I am not even talking about Vista when I say that. I am talking about the theory behind what he is describing. My point is if something is flawed and adding something else that is 100% functional makes it apparent and you blame the fully functional item for the problem you are making a mistake. You need to find the real issue and cause. As previously pointed out bad drivers for third party HW has almost zero to do with MS. I mean if you are going to hate MS do it for the valid reasons not other companies screw ups.

gunslinger
11-26-2007, 02:23 PM
Sorry, after listening to your evidence it seems totally anecdotal. Many people love to hate MS and that seems the real basis for most of the complaints. I worked for HP at the time and a year after XPs release we didn't have drivers for many HP products? Was that MS's fault? Not in my opinion.


Totally anecdotal? What kind of proof do you need? Greggh said they had feed back from 5,100 people about Vista and only one likes it. Over 900 IT pros. and about 860 said they wont go to Vista due to stability issues. I have had dozens of customers come to me begging to go back to XP. I'm not sure what kind of proof you need. As far as hating Microsoft goes, I don't hate Microsoft. I have used Windows all the way back to 3.1. I think they dropped the ball on a a few things, like Windows ME and Vista.

gunslinger
11-26-2007, 02:28 PM
I am not even talking about Vista when I say that. I am talking about the theory behind what he is describing. My point is if something is flawed and adding something else that is 100% functional makes it apparent and you blame the fully functional item for the problem you are making a mistake. You need to find the real issue and cause. As previously pointed out bad drivers for third party HW has almost zero to do with MS. I mean if you are going to hate MS do it for the valid reasons not other companies screw ups.


So what you are saying is that if Vista wont work on my system then my computer and my other software is flawed even though XP works just fine? Love that logic.
So other companies made Vista the bloated slow resource hog that it is?
Also by you saying that Vista is 100% functional I think you rendered null and void any future arguments you may have had about it.

Bryce W
11-26-2007, 10:29 PM
So what you are saying is that if Vista wont work on my system then my computer and my other software is flawed even though XP works just fine? Love that logic.
The drivers for your hardware was designed for XP and the software was designed for XP. So you XP runs great and is nice and stable.

In most cases, Hardware drivers for Vista are largely untested or simply ported from the XP version making Vista unstable.

Those who are pro-vista here used it on modern hardware, where the hardware was created AFTER the release of Vista and thus designed FOR Vista.

Other than those few Vista issues I posted a few posts ago (network/file copying slowness) I am yet to see an issue that couldnt be caused by a bad driver or incompatable software.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 11:37 PM
What's so wrong about "everything worked before Vista. Vista adds no desirable features. Everything went to **** with Vista. Removing Vista fixed all the problems" being the train of logic you use to reach the conclusion "installing Vista is bad"?

It's a slow OS with compatibility problems, and no new features that justify the overhead and make it worth dealing with the compatibility. Forget if it's MS' fault or not - regardless of whose fault it is that Vista is bloated, slow, and has compatibility issues with everything, the fact remains that it is these things, and so there's still no compelling reason to upgrade, at all.

Hi John

The problem is the methodology behind the reasoning is faulty. If a Tech researches the problem and there is a bug or other error in Vista causing the issue then, yes, Vista is the problem. If, on the other hand, incompatible HW, incorrect driver, or other culprit is causing the issue it is counter productive to blame it on Vista.

As to the speed issue I am told that is a bit more complicated. Another Tech who has used it extensively says it is faster if you are using very up to date HW especially if you are running Office2007. I haven't used it enough to verify that for myself but the Tech I am talking about I thoroughly trust.

Vista has its good points and bad points. I remember XP being pretty shoddy for over 1 year from date of release. It remains to be seen in my opinion if Vista will be more like XP or ME.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 11:40 PM
Could not have said it better JohnR. I'm glad there is still some people here with common sense.

"As an experienced computer tech do you realize how wrong that is?"

As an experienced computer tech I know this to be true, its simple logic. If everything is running fine on my system and I add a program and my computer starts to malfunction the logical thing to do is to remove the offending program and see if things get better, if all the problems go away I know that program is unstable and is causing issues. I don't go change everything on my system and buy all new hardware to accommodate that one program. I find a stable program that does the same job. Its just common sense.

The problem is simple logic is often wrong. Basing decisions on assumptions and false information leads to simplistic answers that cost Techs and their customers money. It is better to understand the actual issues and causes and solve the problem. Just my take on it. Every one has to do what is right for them.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 11:45 PM
Totally anecdotal? What kind of proof do you need? Greggh said they had feed back from 5,100 people about Vista and only one likes it. Over 900 IT pros. and about 860 said they wont go to Vista due to stability issues. I have had dozens of customers come to me begging to go back to XP. I'm not sure what kind of proof you need. As far as hating Microsoft goes, I don't hate Microsoft. I have used Windows all the way back to 3.1. I think they dropped the ball on a a few things, like Windows ME and Vista.

1 out of 5100 people likes Vista over XP? Do you understand how impossible that statistic is? As to the IT pros, of course they are going to chose a proven OS that does what they need over an unproven new release. Let someone be on the bleeding edge. Not that it proves anything but I have been working with a Nation-wide IT company that is rolling out Vista to all their newer computers and all newly released work stations. I must say if I were them I would wait a while before doing so.

NWPhotog
11-26-2007, 11:50 PM
So what you are saying is that if Vista wont work on my system then my computer and my other software is flawed even though XP works just fine? Love that logic.
So other companies made Vista the bloated slow resource hog that it is?
Also by you saying that Vista is 100% functional I think you rendered null and void any future arguments you may have had about it.

I never said Vista was 100% functional although that probably is an accurate statement. I specifically noted I was talking about the faulty methodology behind your reasoning. Honestly "Gunslinger" you are 100% entitled to your opinion and so are those that disagree with you.

Bryce W
11-27-2007, 02:09 AM
Lets not forget that XP went though the exact same growing pains. I remember a time when Windows 98 (as unstable as it is) was MORE stable than the early XP versions. It took me a few years before I converted to XP, for the exact same reasons you have mentioned Gunslinger.

Gunslinger, I totally see where you are at and why you are so against Vista. I wouldnt recommend it to my clients either. However, I see its potential to be a good OS in time, just like XP.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 02:17 AM
Ok first off I will address the Drivers and 3rd party apps issue posed by Bryce. I respect your
opinion, and in a lot of the issues I and many others have had with Vista I would say you are correct. But not all of Vistas issues can be blamed on 3rd party apps and old hardware. I have used 3 different versions of Vista in the past 10-11 months and none have impressed me with their reliability, although the 32 bit is much better than the 64 bit.
Now as for you "NWPhotog" I guess you are calling Greggh a lier because these figures are from him. "1 out of 5100 people likes Vista over XP? Do you understand how impossible that statistic is?" thats what the man said and I have no reason to doubt him.
Vista adds no desirable features and no one has been able to tell me what it can do that XP can not do. So, why switch to Vista? My point has been from the start that " if it aint broke, don't fix it" You gain nothing by going to vista other than incompatibility issues.
I too remember XP being pretty shoddy for over 1 year from date of release and I did not go out and recommend it to everyone until long after SP1.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 02:22 AM
I agree Bryce, Vista has the potential to be a good OS, but it needs time to grow. At this point I think one would be foolish to recommend people make the switch. Lack of driver support, software incompatibility, and other issues make the switch from a very stable OS stupid no mater what logic you use.

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 03:27 AM
Now as for you "NWPhotog" I guess you are calling Greggh a lier because these figures are from him. "1 out of 5100 people likes Vista over XP? Do you understand how impossible that statistic is?" thats what the man said and I have no reason to doubt him.


Gunslinger

I am calling no one a liar. I am saying even if Vista was the equivalent of DOS 1.0 more than 1 person out of 5100 would prefer it. Different people like different things and it is very easy to see that data result is impossible. Thanks for softening your viewpoint in view of others positive experience with Vista.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 03:40 AM
You are saying that the facts presented by him are false, here in the south thats the equivalent of calling someone a lier, but I guess thats just here.

dipper
11-27-2007, 04:31 AM
Vista adds no desirable features and no one has been able to tell me what it can do that XP can not do. So, why switch to Vista? My point has been from the start that " if it aint broke, don't fix it"

So why are you using XP rather than say Windows 2000?

Many people are also happy to still use Windows 98, I suppose you still sell Windows 98 to these people too?

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 04:45 AM
You are saying that the facts presented by him are false, here in the south thats the equivalent of calling someone a lier, but I guess thats just here.

I know what a Liar is but never heard of a Lier? Is there a reason you are so antagonistic, can't stand the idea of someone having a different opinion, and even, gasp, them being right?! Honestly with your nick, logo and attitude Gun you are totally transparent.

dipper
11-27-2007, 05:04 AM
Is there a reason you are so antagonistic, can't stand the idea of someone having a different opinion, and even, gasp, them being right?! Honestly with your nick, logo and attitude Gun you are totally transparent.

He definitely can't stand someone having a different opinion to himself.

As soon as I mentioned I liked Vista and that Vista has its place along with XP I was howled down.

As far as I could make out in his opinion:
- it was impossible for me to have a fully functional Vista machine as he had never seen one.
- there is no such thing as a happy Vista users.
- everything is Vista / Microsofts fault.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 05:11 AM
" So why are you using XP rather than say Windows 2000?
Many people are also happy to still use Windows 98, I suppose you still sell Windows 98 to these people too?"
I think Xp was a major upgrade from 98, and I don't think that can be compared to XP vs. Vista.


NWPhotog

Yep, I had a misspell. I don't think that makes my point less valid. There is nothing wrong with someone having a different opinion, even if they are wrong. As far as me being "totally transparent" I'm not sure what you mean. I have been using the gunlinger name for my email for years and got the nickname from my former line of work in security and my training. As for my avatar, I have always liked the punisher comic books and thought it looked cool. Is there a reason why you are attacking my character?
I think I understand, if you can't win an argument or debate with facts, attack the other guy on a personal level. Nice try but I don't have to resort to that.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 05:23 AM
He definitely can't stand someone having a different opinion to himself.

As soon as I mentioned I liked Vista and that Vista has its place along with XP I was howled down.

As far as I could make out in his opinion:
- it was impossible for me to have a fully functional Vista machine as he had never seen one.
- there is no such thing as a happy Vista users.
- everything is Vista / Microsofts fault.

Like I said you can have any opinion you want even if its disproven with facts. I guess fully functional Vista machine is a subjective term.
I never said there is no such thing as a happy Vista user, but I have yet to meet one in person.
" Everything is Microsofts fault " nope, but Vista is.

dipper
11-27-2007, 05:33 AM
" So why are you using XP rather than say Windows 2000?
Many people are also happy to still use Windows 98, I suppose you still sell Windows 98 to these people too?"
I think Xp was a major upgrade from 98, and I don't think that can be compared to XP vs. Vista.



I agree but your words were "if it aint broke, don't fix it" and for some people 98 is fine and in their opinion isn't broken. So going by that statment you would still recommend 98!

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 05:37 AM
I agree but your words were "if it aint broke, don't fix it" and for some people 98 is fine and in their opinion isn't broken. So going by that statment you would still recommend 98!

Nope. Most software made these days works with XP and does not work with 98 or Vista. When and if most software is made for Vista and not for XP that will make XP broken by default because it will no longer work with the apps. I want to use.

dipper
11-27-2007, 05:57 AM
Like I said you can have any opinion you want even if its disproven with facts. I guess fully functional Vista machine is a subjective term.


Yes it is a subjective term which is what seems to be the main point of difference here.

Just because Vista doesn't support everything that XP does doesn't make it any less of an operating system for certain people. If Vista does what the actual user wants why should they care if Vista doesn't support XYZ printer or ABC software etc. ie if it works for them then thats great. If it doesn't then it is up to us techs to either get it to work or recommend they go back to XP.

Yesterday I had a tech say that a certain printer wouldn't work in MS Windows 2003 as it is old and there are no drivers. Do I throw up my hands and say Windows 2003 server is crap and install Windows 2000 Server? No I recommend what they can do.

My main concern is that you seem to have a blinkered vision and do not recommend Vista for anyone even if it would suit their needs perfectly.

dipper
11-27-2007, 06:05 AM
Nope. Most software made these days works with XP and does not work with 98 or Vista. When and if most software is made for Vista and not for XP that will make XP broken by default because it will no longer work with the apps. I want to use.


In the customers eyes though it cannot be broken as they still use the same software they always had.

Also wasn't it you who complained about being "forced" to buy new software and hardware just to get Vista to work? So is it ok to force a user to buy new software for XP but not ok for Vista? You seem to have double standards?

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 06:08 AM
"Just because Vista doesn't support everything that XP does doesn't make it any less of an operating system for certain people."

Thats exactly what makes it less functional, and therefore less of an operating system. Less than XP anyway. I guess if all certain people do is check their email now and then and never want to install any programs. Its fine for them, but why would they go to an OS thats needs more RAM and cost so much just to do that?

"My main concern is that you seem to have a blinkered vision and do not recommend Vista for anyone even if it would suit their needs perfectly."

Sure don't, because anything Vista can do XP can do better and on a more stable platform.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 06:13 AM
In the customers eyes though it cannot be broken as they still use the same software they always had.



Also wasn't it you who complained about being "forced" to buy new software and hardware just to get Vista to work? So is it ok to force a user to buy new software for XP but not ok for Vista? You seem to have double standards?

Wrong again, when they are using "software 2.0" and "software 4.2" comes out they may upgrade. If not and Microsoft still supports the OS they are using, why upgrade?

Would'nt have a problem with it if Vista was better than XP, but its not.
Again I think you are trying to compare the XP vs. Vista to the 98 vs. XP battle and you can't because XP was a mega leap over 98. Again, I have yet to see something Vista can do that XP cannot

dipper
11-27-2007, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE=gunslinger;6700Sure don't, because anything Vista can do XP can do better and on a more stable platform.[/QUOTE]

Again better and stable are subjective terms.

I have heard others say that Vista is better and faster than XP. You as a tech should want to know how that can be so and ask suitable questions. You though put up the blinkers and say XP is best.

dipper
11-27-2007, 06:28 AM
Wrong again, when they are using "software 2.0" and "software 4.2" comes out they may upgrade.


They "may" upgrade as you put it. They may not as well which makes the 98 machine in your own reasoning still a suitable machine.

BTW In a few years what will you tell people that you sold XP computers to that the latest software won't work!!!

or

When you recommend XP over Vista to a client (because Vista is crap according to you) and the client says but my mate Fred uses Vista for exactly what I want and he loves it and has no problems.

If I was you I would be trying hard to find out why people are happy using Vista and what is different on their machines than yours. You though put your head in the sand and ignore others and jump on the convenient excuse that "Vista is crap" bandwagon.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 06:28 AM
I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to say Vista is faster given two identical computers with the same specs. If you can show me that Vista is faster than XP given the same specs. I'd like to see it.
My idea of stable is no blue screens, freezing, or random data corruption among other things.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 06:36 AM
They "may" upgrade as you put it. They may not as well which makes the 98 machine in your own reasoning still a suitable machine.

BTW In a few years what will you tell people that you sold XP computers to that the latest software won't work!!!

or

When you recommend XP over Vista to a client (because Vista is crap according to you) and the client says but my mate Fred uses Vista for exactly what I want and he loves it and has no problems.

If I was you I would be trying hard to find out why people are happy using Vista and what is different on their machines than yours. You though put your head in the sand and ignore others and jump on the convenient excuse that "Vista is crap" bandwagon.

I think I said if the os is still supported.

I would say that Fred could have saved himself about $400 and Done the same thing with XP.

If I could find someone where I live that is happy with Vista I'd love to find out why. But so far no "happy Vista users" to be found here. ( hmmm...must be something in the water )

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 10:57 AM
Like I said you can have any opinion you want even if its disproven with facts.

The trouble is a different opinion than yours equals wrong to you. When you came across evidence that disproved your opinion you didn't ask questions concerning details you just tried to shout it down. I would hope you know exactly what transparent is. 'Nough said.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 11:09 AM
If I like chocolate and you like vanilla thats a difference of opinion. Vista being a bloated unstable OS thats not as good as XP at this point is fact. I'm still not sure why you are trying to insult me but if if it makes you feel better about Vista to each his own.....lol

dipper
11-27-2007, 11:18 AM
If I could find someone where I live that is happy with Vista I'd love to find out why. But so far no "happy Vista users" to be found here. ( hmmm...must be something in the water )

So if you actually met someone in person you would be nice and civil to them.

When you meet someone online though you try and abuse the crap out of them!

Lovely double standards there!

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 11:24 AM
I always try to be be nice and civil in person or online. Sorry if you feel abused Dipper.
If I met someone that had no issues with Vista I would love to see their system and software that they are running.

dipper
11-27-2007, 11:41 AM
I always try to be be nice and civil in person or online. Sorry if you feel abused Dipper.
If I met someone that had no issues with Vista I would love to see their system and software that they are running.


But you have never asked me (or AFAIK anyone else on this list that likes Vista) why I like Vista, how I have it running, tweaks etc. You have just toally ignored people who run and use Vista and claim Vista is crap.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 11:49 AM
Compared to Xp it is crap. XP is faster , more stable, takes up less space, and at this point has far less issues.
Good point. Why do you like Vista? what makes it better than XP? What features does it have that makes it worth the $400-500 price tag? What can I do on a Vista machine that I can not do on an XP machine?

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 12:01 PM
But you have never asked me (or AFAIK anyone else on this list that likes Vista) why I like Vista, how I have it running, tweaks etc. You have just toally ignored people who run and use Vista and claim Vista is crap.

Well said Dipper.

As to Vista costing $300-$400 that is a joke? I can buy all the Vista Business Premium I want for $120. I forgot what cost on Vista Ultimate was but only a little more. For $399 I can get a complete new computer running Vista with monitor!

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 12:14 PM
Vista Ultimate $319.99 newegg.com a lot more at the local shops.

I'm still waiting on answers to all my questions.

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 12:55 PM
What? no answers yet? Maybe you forgot the simple questions I asked. Seeing as how you and your friend NWPhotog love Vista so much you would think one of you could tell me why Vista is better. My questions are:

Why do you like Vista? what makes it better than XP? What features does it have that make it worth the high price tag? What can I do on a Vista machine that I can not do on an XP machine?
You were all upset that I did not ask these questions of a "happy vista user" so I'm asking.

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 02:04 PM
Man Gunslinger you are so freaking funny! Do you think any of us are going to bother after page after page of chest thumping, brow beating, and bullying? LOL! :)

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 02:34 PM
" chest thumping, brow beating, and bullying?"
I don't recall doing any of those things. The reason why you wont answer my questions is because you are wrong, and you know it. You know full well there is no reason to upgrade to Vista at this point. You know why you can't tell me why Vista is better than XP? Because its not, and you can't prove that it is. You also know you can not prove that Vista is faster than XP on the same hardware because its just not.
I started this post to explain why I was leaving Vista and going back to XP. Then you and Dipper came in to basicly tell me that it was all my fault that Vista wont work right. If you cannot back up your arguments with facts you have no argument.

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 03:03 PM
Thank you Gunslinger so proving my point so well! Have a great life buddy. :)

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 03:13 PM
Ran away from the questions again Nwphotog? Whats wrong? I thought Vista was the greatest thing since the internet. Why can't you tell me why its better than XP? What point? You never had a point.
You have a great life too "buddy".

Oh, and a word of advice: Don't get into an argument you can't win, and if you do find yourself in one, learn how to leave gracefully and with dignity.

NWPhotog
11-27-2007, 03:19 PM
LOL. They should rename you Chuckles! :D

gunslinger
11-27-2007, 03:27 PM
Very mature statement.

dipper
11-27-2007, 08:46 PM
Oh, and a word of advice: Don't get into an argument you can't win, and if you do find yourself in one, learn how to leave gracefully and with dignity.

You are now asking the questions. Does that mean you are questioning whether your comments are indeed wrong? So how are you going to end this with grace and dignity?

BTW Don't expect any answers due to all your chest thumping about how you are right and everyone who actually run Vista are wrong!

gunslinger
11-28-2007, 03:04 AM
Again there was no "chest thumping" on this side, I'm not the one who questioned your ability as a tech, I'm also no the one who resorted to childish insults when facts failed me. I believe that was all you and NWPhotog. I don't have to leave gracefully because you have yet to prove anything but your lack of debating skills. When asked to prove your side you quickly change the subject.

Bryce W
11-28-2007, 03:58 AM
I think this thread has lived out its life. Now you are just flinging poo at eachother. Closing.